The current signal to noise ratio...

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theFinn
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The current signal to noise ratio...

Post by theFinn » Fri Oct 05, 2001 6:07 am

Ok the signal to noise ratio (or, good usefull post to bad annoying post ratio) is getting way out of wack around here. I'm seeing more and more posts that annoy me. So we're going to fix that, now!

This is a place to have intellegent, civil discussions about phpBB v2.0. If you can't contibute a post that has some value to the topic you're reading DON'T POST.

Here's the kinds of posts I'm sick of:

1) The 'when is phpBB 2 coming out' post. From now on these will be locked or removed on sight.. Do a search and you'll find your answer.

2) The 'do you like me site' post. If you're testing phpBB 2.0 and have a template you want to show off thats fine. If you've just got a site you want people to look at I'll axe the topic.

3) The 'insert lame joke here' post. Just tacking a lame joke about the topic or previous post onto a topic is NOT a usfull way to contribute to this forum.

4) The 'wow the phpBB team is great' or the 'wow phpBB 2 R0X0RZ' post. Thank you for the sentiment but we've heard it a thousand times.. You can show you like phpBB by using it when its ready.

Anyone who posts consistantly annoying posts will be banned (we need to test the ban code somehow..heh).

The types of posts I would like to see? Anything that is intellegent, entertaining, or informative. Quesionts about phpBB's features, code, or design are welcome.

Ok..thats it.. try and keep it level headed people :)
James 'theFinn' Atkinson
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Post by Kanuck » Fri Oct 05, 2001 4:38 pm

What about the intelligent, non-phpBB discussions that occasionally spring up? It's nice to have some B-sides on the board, for variety's sake...
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Post by Shantra » Fri Oct 05, 2001 5:03 pm

theFinn,
I understand very much what you are saying, but since the forums name is "phpBB v2.0 Chit Chat", many visitors understand that as it says. At first glance I would understand that as a forum where you could talk about anything regarding the v2.0, not restrictive to certain topics.

Constructive suggestion:
Why not place an announcement in the forum called "Read this before you post"?
In this announcement you state that everone that wants to post a topic should search the forum first. You could also state what kind of post that are not welcome to this forum. (In a kind way)!!

I think some of the people (including me) that has posted topics or reply's to this board that falls under the category "not wanted", feels that they have done something wrong and are not wanted here. I know that I maximice the problem, but I think that you should think about that.
What if a new user visits this forum for the first time, posted a "thank you" topic and afterwards reads you "kind" message. How do you think he feels?

Ok, I hope you can take some constructive critisism! :)

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Post by dougk_ff7 » Fri Oct 05, 2001 5:59 pm

Kanuck: my best idea would be in the testing forum. It will delete posts regularly, but only if nobody's posted to the topic.
dougk_ff7.... stand by for sig! oooh! wow.

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Post by SamG » Fri Oct 05, 2001 11:48 pm

I've thought about this a lot. I can accept all the criticims theFinn has leveled against us. Certainly, if nothing else, it's the prerogative of the phpBB Group to set whatever standards they like for these forums, and I have no quarrel with that.

But to belittle people's sincere, even if unwanted, attempts to express appreciation for the work of the phpBB Group goes pretty far. I'd like to think there's an explanation for that kind of attitude. On the face of it, without explanation, it certainly does make those who have tried to express their newbie gratitude and excitement appear foolish.

Does the phpBB Group or the theFinn as an individual really mean what this says? Is there a rational defense of it?

Sam

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Post by psoTFX » Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:42 am

Note: I'm speaking for me and not James (theFinn) so if what I say is not what he's "thinking" he should feel totally free to correct me :D

I think what James is saying is that this is a developmental forum. It's purpose is to allow you to give us feedback on 2.0. Now I (and I imagine James) realise that with us nearing completion on 2.0 that we no longer ask for much feedback. Indeed we've gone out our way to try to ensure people realise that features they suggest are very unlikely to appear in 2.0 and that they should hold off suggesting features for 2.2. So, I guess people are 'entertaining' themselves with all manner of other topics :D

The problem with this is that it makes our (the developers) life a little harder in that we have to go fishing through dozens and dozens of posts to find that one comment which may solve/highlight/explain a problem.

As for people congratulating us. We do appreciate it, really we do. However it comes under the category highlighted above, it potentially obscures that one important post. The best way people can show their gratitude and pleasure with 2.0 is to go forth and advertise :D Tell your friends, suggest phpBB 2.0 when people ask about bulletin boards, etc. (of course point out that it's not officially released yet!).

Finally I know I for one have got a little tired @ times reading the same thing over and over and over. This is made much worse when questions occur within two or three posts of each other! Of course occasionally people will miss things and yet more people who's first language isn't English may not understand the significance of our responses. However we would really appreciate it if people took some time and looked for answers, read the new FAQ post in Chit Chat (thanks Col!), read the main FAQ, etc. before posting a question.

So, there you go, that's my take on the situation :)

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Post by The Flib » Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:47 am

How about the now-famous age related thread? That has evolved so far away from having something to do with PHP at all that it would be a candidate for deletion by your rules, but... Why put a board up and then limit what people can say? Obviously we're enjoying the thread, or we wouldn't post in it... If you limit what people can do to the point where it annoys them, they revolt. Or get mad, anyway. Just only read the ones you want to read. I realize that the whole point of the forum was to talk about phpBB2, and you're perfectly within your rights to limit it to that... but why? There are plenty of useful posts, also, and now, with the great functions that you've got in 2.0, it's easier to weed out the junk, or at least the things you don't want to read. So why not just leave well enough alone, and let people talk about what they want to? (Obviously, If I started flaming everyone and cursing people out, you'd want to delete that, or if I posted about my dogs... (wait, you did that) but talking about philosophy or parenting with regards to programming isn't exactly hurting the project)
I am no longer doing any phpBB related projects. Except Vertex, which is only a front for Sphereal.

http://sphereal.com/

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Post by Shantra » Sat Oct 06, 2001 1:01 am

psoTFX,
I understand that VERY much!
It's only that many (still including me) didn't know that this forum is restricted mainly to the topics that are important to the develpment of 2.0.
Take me for example, I was refered to this site by a link in the main forum. How could I have known that?

I suggest that you add a "real" chit chat forum to this board! This way people could post their "less important" messages there.

One more thing! Isn't it important to test the forum with a lot of posts? A kind of stress test light :D

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Post by psoTFX » Sat Oct 06, 2001 1:05 am

hhmm, I'm not going to argue about this subject, I'm sure James will add his take.

I'll just point out (again) that this board exists for feedback and discussion of 2.0. The forum name here is "phpBB v2.0 Chit Chat", it's not "General Chit Chat", not "Chit Chat", it's "phpBB v2.0 Chit Chat" ...

The main board still exists, and it retains its "General Discussion" forum. I (we) completely understand people want to post here (it's much nicer :D ), but people also have to understand this is a dev board and that way OT posts may be locked, moved or in a worst case scenario deleted.

EDIT: Shantra, yes it's great to get thousands of registered users here and thousands of posts. Indeed it's only recently the number of OT posts has increased dramatically. Of course though we have tools to dump hundreds of thousands of posts onto test boards to test them + other tools to simulate hundreds of simultaneous users (we've already done both and are pleased to report 2.0 held up very well :) ) ... so it's not critical to testing (but as I said, it is nice).

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Post by SamG » Sat Oct 06, 2001 1:22 am

psoTFX,

Again, no quarrel; I do see your point. It takes time and energy to read through my stupid stuff, and there is no point in it in terms of phpBB v2 development (or much else). And I acknowledge your point about these forums really not being open forums but forums with a specific purpose. I have no problem with any of that. And I appreciate your frustration over the fact that people don't do their homework before they post. All that is fair and I accept it all.

Just so we are clear on that much...

Sam

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Post by theFinn » Sat Oct 06, 2001 1:44 am

Ok. Let me clear up a few things. No post will be removed if it has intellegent, or usfull content. That includes topics that don't relate to phpBB.

SamG:
But to belittle people's sincere, even if unwanted, attempts to express appreciation for the work of the phpBB Group goes pretty far. I'd like to think there's an explanation for that kind of attitude. On the face of it, without explanation, it certainly does make those who have tried to express their newbie gratitude and excitement appear foolish.


I'm not belittling anyone. I'm just tired of the 'Wooo phpBB rocks! Yay!' type posts, you can show your appriciatoin for the software and the community by posting good posts and using or recommending our software.

Paul's comments were right on the money, this is a development forum and we don't have time to activly moderate it so I'm asking the community to self-govern themselves and show that can be responsible adults.

:)
James 'theFinn' Atkinson
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Post by SamG » Sat Oct 06, 2001 1:53 am

theFinn,

I agree with the need to post good posts. Granted, and rightly so. Since we already do use the software and recommend it I'm not sure why we are being told that.

Let's pretend I'm a famous professor, say J.R.R. Tolkien. And you are one of my students, a new one, and I've had thousands of them. And you are so excited about being in my class and about my books. So you say something. And I say to you that I'm sick and tired of people saying that to me and that if you really do like me and my books please just attend all my lectures and buy my books. Those are the only expressions of gratitude that mean anything to me. C.S. Lewis got a bad rep among some of his students for just that kind of thing, or so they say. They felt belittled by him.

That's what I'm hearing. If I'm hearing it wrong, I apologize. And since you've been gracious to let me have my say, my say is said.

Sam

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Post by Kanuck » Sat Oct 06, 2001 2:50 am

theFinn wrote:
Paul's comments were right on the money, this is a development forum and we don't have time to activly moderate it so I'm asking the community to self-govern themselves and show that can be responsible adults.


Need anyone to help moderate? I could think of a few decent candidates... ;)

And seriously, no matter what, you really won't be able to stop people from posting topics on this board that are irrelevant to phpBB (like the Physical Desktop thread, the Attack on America thread, the Ageism thread...) if that's the way the community decides to go for a few topics here and there, it can't be helped :). So why not make a General Mayhem-style board, just to allow us to vent every so often? I'll even move topics in and out of there, whenever it's needed. PM me, I'm willing to put in the time for a good cause :D

This is a smaller community than the main boards, a good bit more tightly knit, too... so it'd be nice to have a place to discuss parenting, terrorism, computer equipment, etc... you know?
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Post by Shantra » Sat Oct 06, 2001 2:58 am

SamG,
You put it well!! That was kind of what I ment in my post.
I think that psoTFX has been very diplomatic in this case, and in other cases.
I know that we are in the hands of the phpBB team, and has to follow the rules (if we know them). :D

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Post by The Flib » Sat Oct 06, 2001 11:59 am

I'm totally on board with Kanuck there... if all of the OT posts were someplace else, it would make it even easier to make intelligent responses to the relevant posts. And then, after I've helped a newbie and put in a futile argument about some various aspect of phpBB2 (cookies vs. sessions, THE FEATURE LIST IS LOCKED DAMMIT) then I'd go and waste time in the Mayhem forum. It's better than actually doing work... Just think- in addition to making the best forum software out there, you could make an entire community site, just add a few developers, work on some new seperate features, and then launch it. Granted it wouldn't have to be open source, you could rival bolt.com, because their software sucks, there just isn't anything better.

(That got way OT, hope it doesn't get deleted)
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