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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:02 am
by AndreStarTrek
Just a note to everyone we crimson and I will add this hack or a beter version in the phpBB2mod. So just see it as what has to come and what is posseble (you know a preview) ;)

Any way I have setup on our site 2 boards one with and one with out. So check it out your self. :)

Without template speed up ... ic.php?t=1

With template speed up ... ic.php?t=1

Have fun.

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:13 am
by Kanuck
[quote=BartVB]Please calm down people.. There is more going on here than you can see in this topic..

I completely support Paul in his initial reaction but I know it seems to be a bit 'harsh' for people that just come in and don't know what is exactly going on here..

The performance increase is nice but has been discussed between Nathan, CrimsonBane and Nathan... Please be patient and please don't draw conclusions when you don't have all the facts.[/quote]
Still doesn't excuse PSO for blowing up on me like that.

I shouldn't have to feel like I'm walking through a f*cking minefield every time I say something, wondering if my next step will get my leg blown off by PSO... and yet, that's exactly how I've been feeling around here lately. I had no idea that I was walking into the middle of some explosive situation, because like Bart said, I "don't have all the facts," and like PSO said, I have "no idea about some discussions that have gone on."

So don't point out that I have no clue what goes on behind the scenes, and then proceed to get extremely p*ssed off with me about it, because clearly, if I didn't know what I was saying had any correlation with the convos that go on between the devs, then I didn't mean any offense to anybody.

And Paul, I don't often criticize things you say... I may occasionally poke fun at you, but I do it to everybody... and besides, you're just as guilty of that as I am, we all kid around on occasion.

But you know, I really don't need this kind of crap right now, I've had enough petty little arguments about nothing for today. I'll just catch up on things tomorrow, cuz I don't feel like engaging in any Days Of Our Lives action at the moment. Whatever.

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:19 am
by Pit
I think it's best if everyone just calms down (I'm not accusing anyone, so don't get annoyed with me). It won't make it any better to argue.

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:34 am
by theFinn

First, the off topic stuff. Kanuck, settle down a bit, Paul wasn't being too harsh you're taking it too hard. Remember, its just words on a screen..

Second, Crimson as Paul said this is something we've planned to look into for 2.2, however our own tests have showen that the template compile time is less then .05 seconds (on an AMD k6-2 300, with 89mb of RAM) so its not something at the top of our agenda. If we get alot of people compaining about page gen times after 2.0 is release we'll bump it up the latter.

Andre: In your example, generation without the hack: 0.26, generation time with the hack: 0.23, only a 0.03 difference, which could also be attributed to a faster DB connection... The sourceforge server are pretty high powered so I don't think this hack would make much difference on them.

Crimson: I'd like to see what sort of performance results we get on here when we get 90 people online. You think you could tell your users to beat the hell out of this place for a while?

Anyway, to sum this all up. Hacks that improve phpBB (even if it'll only help on some systems) are good!


Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 12:36 am
by CrimsonBane

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:53 am
by Conundrum
you got a 27% proformance increase !

Way to go CrimsonBane

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:58 am
by CrimsonBane

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:59 am
by psoTFX
Okay for people 'not in the know', excluding some information we still won't discuss in public.

Some time ago myself and James had a discussion with Crimson on IRC where we got talking about some tests he'd done with compiling templates. That were very interesting, I asked that he continue and let us know what happens as did James. We were both very eager to keep this going. As I said to Crimson @ the time, it looked unlikely this would go into 2.0 but 2.2 was a strong possibility, as Crimson will (I'm sure ...) agree, he was fine with this. After this I don't recall receiving anything from Crimson re: progress, certainly don't have any PM's left over nor any emails (my appologies to Crimson if I did and they've just been deleted or 'other').

Meanwhile, after one of our developer chats (where the topic of compiled templates was raised, Nathan saying he'd already thought about compiling the templates and dumping them into the DB), Nathan, myself, James and Bart started to run a few checks. We basically timed every single major operation in phpBB 2.0, everything from the includes in common through to individual SQL operations and even generation of the page_footer(!). We found that on most pages the includes took most time, followed by SQL, template compilation was generally down the list taking only a minority of the total page gen time. We also ran other tests (which I've already posted the results of) whereby we loaded up the DB with 200,000+ posts, several tens of thousands of users and found (as per James) that even on a relatively low spec'd system 2.0 performed very well. I also ran tests whereby I created 200+ new sessions in two minutes (new sessions, not just browsing two already existing sessions) on a typically spec'd, typically loaded (AFAIK) virtual host, again 2.0 performed very well, page gen times being 2-4s.

Today, Crimson's posted this hack, now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong in him doing this and he's completely free to do so. However, we did have plans to examine this for 2.2, it's on the feature list (yes, we do have a feature list other than the one in my head ;) ). So this sort of renders that useless, and I freely admit to being a little miffed about that because I like introducing surprises into 2.x and, if the results are correct then for large and/or very busy servers this would have been a nice incremental improvement.

Now, Kanuck pissed me off because I'm a little tired of being 'questioned' all the time as if I'm a newbie who doesn't know what's going on or what's planned. I'll say this once and once only, I have a very good idea what's happening and what's planned. As Lead Developer of 2.0 it's my responsibility to oversee day to day running of the 2.x project, what happens to it, what goes in it (persuant to an agreed group plan), etc. So as I said in response to Kanuck, before you tell me (or indeed any other dev) to "calm down" or "grab a beer" (noting that I can't actually drink alcohol these days(!)) do me a favour and run through this question "Does Paul have a reason for replying in the way he did? Does he perhaps know something I don't?" ... this may save future arguments :) Also remember that my replys can be abrasive at times, sorry but that's just me, if you don't like it "tough" or so to speak ;) You'll also note that on (not rare) occassions I'll go out of my way to be helpful (keep this in mind when thinking about the abrasiveness of my replies too :D ).

We're at present trying to get to a new release, we can't do that when people keep saying "Can we have this? Can we have that?". So I'll also say this once, no, you can't have x feature in 2.0 unless the code in which it will 'fit' is still being finalised ... and right now this means little bits of search and style admin ... and neither is likely to gain any significant additional feature at this time. I'm sorry if this pissed anyone off but we're continually bombarded with "Why don't you release it?", "When is it being released?".

Everyone remember this was re-written from the ground up, we've been working on this for some 10 months ... what you see here is nowhere near what was originally envisioned (ask James), it's gone way beyond that. As such you can think of this release as a 'starting point' for even greater things to come ...

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:19 am
by CrimsonBane

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:29 am
by gameofhit
I hate to OT this like this, but will you Please shrink the image!! I had to read pso's post using the horiz scroll bar, it was a pain in the ass. And before you ask, I am running 1280x1024 :D, so I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

to the mods: please delete this OT post when or if the image gets fixed/shrunk

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:33 am
by psoTFX
Crimson, no one has 'slandered' you :( If you're saying that what I and James have said is 'not true' wrt our previous conversation then just say "Paul and James are lying" ... I doubt you will say because it's not true.

I think James and I have made the whole thing as clear as possible. We're not dopey programmers you know, we have been known to knock out some half decent code or so people tell us ;) So we're quite aware of the potential of compiled templates wrt large and/or busy servers (I believe I've already said this?) ...

All James is saying is that for a typical user (as you appear to agree) the page gen time difference isn't likely to be a 4s+ to <1s difference. For most people the normal page gen time will be <1s, often far better than that.

And as I'm sure you'll agree, measuring time differences in even 10th's of a second for applications running on virtual servers of varying configurations is often meaningless because that time difference could simply be a separate domain being hit more heavily than usual, a cron job being run, logs being updated, an extra DB load, etc. etc.

I'm not sure what else we can say?

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:39 am
by Nuttzy99
Hmmm... who went around kicking everyone in the pussy? Any way, Crimson, any idea why the generation times vary wildly for me? 1.3 seconds to 23 seconds....

phpBB Created this page in 7.641823 seconds 78 users
phpBB Created this page in 3.313815 seconds 90 users
phpBB Created this page in 3.166283 seconds 129 users
phpBB Created this page in 23.062281 seconds 115 users
phpBB Created this page in 12.139368 seconds 110 users
phpBB Created this page in 1.396734 seconds 107 users

-Nuttzy :cool:

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:40 am
by CrimsonBane

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:45 am
by dougk_ff7
I think Bart had some sort of mod that allowed him to time out every little part. All you need to do is create a new starttime, like pagegenstart and pagegenstop, and then calculate a new one. Be sure to hard-code it into includes/page_tail.php, though. I'll have to get around to installing this... :)

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:51 am
by psoTFX
And it's unlikely to tell us anything we don't know (this will be the third(?) time I've said we realise that for large and/or busy servers compilation may be useful). As I've said to you privately already and publically twice we've already discussed this and we (at least I thought we) had some agreement that when the event about which you and Andre know happens, I'd grab you for a while to work on this for 2.2 in liason with the person that wrote the template engine in the first place, Nathan ... this was my original point and remains the thing that 'disappointed' me in this whole affair.