My Opinion

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iguanairs
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My Opinion

Post by iguanairs »

Hello,

I am a website designer, as well as the webmaster for 6 different sites. All but one of these sites are forum based. In an effort to save money, I decided to give phpbb a whirl.

The majority of my sites are vBulletin based Forums. My experiences have been with VB, so switching to phpbb, with all do respect, was a downgrade.

I am not knocking this forum application, but I do want to explain some things that I feel could be improved, so you would be better capable of handling people like myself that require functionality and speed.

I installed PHPBB on one of my sites. Obviously, it was a default install and it went smooth and easy. That was a plus.

Then I acquired EZPortal, because I need to have a homepage. I can't have "just" the forums. (My vBulletins use vBadvanced as the portal.)

That too went smooth and flawless.

What I was very unimpressed by though was the Admin CP. The controls in there are remedial at best and in general, it is roughly 1/5 the size of the admin cp for VB.

I had do do file edits to do things I can control through the admin cp with VB.

A majority of the hacks/mods found on this site are part of a stock VB. Adding them was not an issue, but the query count that a majority of them produce was astonishing. (In conjunction with one another.)

My stock VB came with a majority of those modifications preinstalled. My query count averages 10 across all of my pages. With 5 modifications installed, I had hit 16 queries on the EZPortal page. That is ridiculousy high and for those that don't know, queries slow down the page load times. The fewer the queries, the faster the page loads. (as there are less calls to the DB.)

I suspect that you are working on implementing a number of those modifications into the application. I am certain that as you do, alternate methods for queries will be used, thus lowering the overall query count.

However, in a productive environment right now, phpbb would not stand up against VB.

I understand that VB costs $160 and phpbb costs nothing. But I wanted everyone to see how it is looked at from those of us that use both platforms. There are severe limitations with phpbb unless I wanted to start rewriting the code to suit my needs. That is something that I don't have the time for.

I hope no one takes this thread the wrong way. I am not endorsing VB, and I am not bashing phpbb. I am however comparing the 2 in terms of functionality.

What would be nice to see in phpbb:

An Admin CP that facilitates every aspect of the site.
A "Phrase Manager" built into the Admin CP. There is no reason the members should have to open up the language file in order to change the phrases. That could be easily added to a stock phpbb since it is only a file anyways. All that is needed is some table cells and a few call features.
Alas, the over all design and colors of the site. Those should be controlled via the admin cp. Not in the way they are now. Something more advanced.
On VB, I can edit the width of my main table, as well as every color on the site. I can also implement added calls via this page, pixel widths for spacing, etc.There is also a color picker with the hex equivalent beside every location. That is a great feature.
It would be really nice if you could also create a template editor directly into the admin cp like VB has. Unless I am adding a completely new feature to VB, I don't have any reason to edit a php or tpl file of any sort. I can make all of my alterations directly through the acp.

For free, this is a great piece of work. I think that it has a ways to go though before it will be able to hold up against forums like VB. I had no alternative but to remove the phpbb and use VB on this new site I am creating. The lack of functionality, and lack of control were killing me and eating my time up. For some us maintaining numerous sites, time is invaluable. Editing core files takes far to much time when they need to be uploaded each time.

I hope this is taken as it was meant to be written. I wanted to express my views and comparisons between 2 popular pieces of forum applications.

Hopefully, this comparison will help give some ideas, if they already weren't being discussed, to help improve the functionality.

Well, thanks for reading this. I am not certain how this site operates, so I may very well be banned and this post deleted. I don't know. I do know that this was just my opinion and views, and I was expressing them politely.

I would like to see this application advance to the level that VB is. It would be a great contribution to open source coding.
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dhn
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Post by dhn »

Please take a look at http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB ... all points you mention are addressed in phpbb 3.0 - beta available soon (I promise*). 3 years in the making, VB probably used some of the ideas we were testing out in public for their 3.0 (along with other commercial forum software developers), and close to a complete rewrite. 8)


*Oh my god, please hurry up Meik
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Post by nuckfan15 »

dhn wrote: *Oh my god, please hurry up Meik


:lol: Those Dang Developers.
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Post by nessup »

That's what I want to hear! :D

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Re: My Opinion

Post by drathbun »

iguanairs wrote: What I was very unimpressed by though was the Admin CP. The controls in there are remedial at best and in general, it is roughly 1/5 the size of the admin cp for VB.

It does what it needs to do.
A "Phrase Manager" built into the Admin CP. There is no reason the members should have to open up the language file in order to change the phrases. That could be easily added to a stock phpbb since it is only a file anyways. All that is needed is some table cells and a few call features.
Alas, the over all design and colors of the site. Those should be controlled via the admin cp. Not in the way they are now. Something more advanced.

The way it is now gives you absolute control over the layout and style of your site. The html is set up and managed in template files that are essentially at the mercy of the developer. :-) Sure you could put in admin control over table headers, cell colors, and stuff like that. But could you completely redo the look / feel of the site? You're talking about integrating Dreamweaver into the ACP.

You're probably picking up on this item because it's different. Work with it a while and you'll see advantages to both ways.
On VB, I can edit the width of my main table, as well as every color on the site. I can also implement added calls via this page, pixel widths for spacing, etc.There is also a color picker with the hex equivalent beside every location. That is a great feature.

And a waste of time. :-) How often do you change this, once it's set up? Really?
For free, this is a great piece of work. I think that it has a ways to go though before it will be able to hold up against forums like VB.

Hmmm, let me check the design criteria. Nope, nothing in there about competing with VB. :-D
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Post by Nephrus »

I like phpBB as it is. I prefer the fact that it's small, it's quick and requires less maintenance than anything else out there. Of course, phpBB doesn't have everything by default, but if you've got the time and you want to learn, go install it.

I've used some of the other packages available and I've stuck with the one I know the most about and have the most experience with.
What I was very unimpressed by though was the Admin CP. The controls in there are remedial at best and in general, it is roughly 1/5 the size of the admin cp for VB.

So? I don't need to drive a Ferrari to work when I have a Mustang. (ok, bad analogy, but you get my point). I find that this gives me what I need to do to keep my boards running.
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Post by iguanairs »

Hello,
I plan on trying back here as the program upgrades. In total, I will be running 15 sites. I am currently at 6, so I have a ways to go yet. I would be more than willing. My opinion was not to put this application down. I was comparing the 2, as I have used both of them and VB isn't a Ferrarri. It is more like a Mustang that has been vamped.

In the admin cp of VB, you controm everything. All of the templates are accessible through the CP. I can assure you that newbies would LOVE that. Its not the easiest thing in the world to do when it is your first time. many newbies make mistakes with their file edits, and then get discouraged. They end up with a stock program because the ability to modify does require some experience, or a willingness to learn.

I myself can code, and I create html templates all the time for people. Integrating them into the various platforms is not that easy for people without experience. VB is VERY user friendly.

I will set up access to my site site within the week. You really need to see why I say that the admin cp needs to be expanded upon. It is absolutely impressive.

I was asked how often I change the widths of my forums and portal, actually, I do it quite often. I change things around at least 3 times a year. I don't interupt the layout, but I change the style as I have time to do so.

Not having to use and ftp or file manager to make my edits means I get more accomplished over a shorter period of time. I can edit my complete site within the admin cp. It doesn't have dreamweaver, or any other "see as I go" software installed. It has an editor. I open the file, and the html is in front of me. Any designer that says this is a waste of time hasn't been designing sites long enough to see the value in that.

Modifications I want to make to my sites don't require me downloading the files, or using a file manager. They are IN the admin cp.

Picture this, every one of the tpl files for php bb are IN the admin cp. They are all named in alphabetical order in a console. You double click the name, and the page changes. That template is now open, within the admin cp, for editing.It took less than 10 seconds to open it, another 10 seconds of editing if you know what you are doing, and then 1 second to see the results. Hit save, and it is done. OH NO, you made a mistake...and it messed up your site? Not a problem. Go back to that file and click the box beside it that says revert and hit save. POOF, that template is now back to its original state, and uneditted.

Every template that you edit is then listed in red. When adding modifications, this is wonderful. You have a heads up if you already made some edits to that file. So if the code you are adding is looking for an edit you already made for another modification, you aren't searching for something that doesn't exist.

When I get the test site up, I will allow everyone a chance to see what I mean. It is remarkable. The speed and ease is something that everyone will agree on.

I don't know if VB took the ideas from you. I also don't know if you took the ideas from them. What i do know is that when people started writing modifications for VB 2, they were incor[porated into vB3. I have been using VB for some time now, so I don't know where the ideas came from. I am certain that all of the applications out there though have used each others ideas.

I just wanted to voice what I have noticed, so perhaps the designers would take this into consideration. IO would guess that most of the designers for this forum have seen VB. If you haven't seen the admin cp, you will in shortly, and you will see what OI mean in regards to functionality. It may help to inspire some ideas, and ways to improve VB's layout.

Another thing to note is the way that VB releases their modifications. They too are well written by those that contribute them. I have seen several of the modifications on this site, and if I didn't know what I was looking for, I would have been lost via some of the instructions. I have never had that problem with VB.

One of the modifiers has even written a script that does ALL of the edits for you. It first creates a backup in a "changes" folder, and then edits the files it needs to itself. If one of the edits couldn't be done automatically, perhaps due to previous modifuications, it tells you in the install which file you need to edit WITH a link to the edit that it missed.

That is remarkable, and revolutionary. It changes the way modifications are being installed. I have 2 modifications by this author. One is an autolink system, and the other is an article system. Both would have been pretty large in size for manual edits and took under 5 minutes to install due to the script he wrote that does it for you.

I edit code all day. I am very familiar with the routines involved with creating something like this. I wasn't trying to put this forum application down, I was noticing the differences, and ways to make this one better.
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Post by Tux_Rules »

There is always the http://www.phpbb2.de/ PHP board.
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Post by Blankety Blank Man »

iguanairs wrote: if I didn't know what I was looking for, I would have been lost via some of the instructions. I have never had that problem with VB.
If a Mod is confusing, that's the Mod authour's fault, and their fault alone (or perhaps the Reader just doesn't know how to read it, not that I'm saying you can't, but some people just can't understand the format Mods are written in).
iguanairs wrote: One of the modifiers has even written a script that does ALL of the edits for you.
EasyMod is similar to that, though it isn't as advanced (yet) as you say.
iguanairs wrote: switching to phpbb, with all do respect, was a downgrade.
I don't know who wrote: You get what you pay for.
I think it aplies nicely. To say that a free bulletin board engine(?) is only marginally (marginally as in the faults you listed) worse than one that costs $160 is saying something about the people who developed the free one, and that perhaps the payed one is overpriced (which I personally think it is)
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Post by AdamR »

I'll let this topic stay open a bit longer, as the posts so far have been mature in attitude, and see where it goes. :)

As dhn has noted, phpBB 3.0 address many of these options/features. If it hasn't, you can submit your ideas to the feature tracker on our SourceForge page. :)

Also, phpBB doesn't add features simply because "competing" boards have them. I use the word competing loosely. phpBB is not trying to take away from the userbase of vB or IPB or any other board. phpBB is trying to make a useful forum solution, which is free for everyone to use. Only features which are deemed useful and appropriate (keyword) will be and have been added in phpBB 3.0, and also for future feature releases. Some of the features of vB and IPB are, in my opinion, very bloated and unnecessary for a bulletin board. The vanilla software should support its purpose and its purpose only. If a user needs another feature, say a calendar, there are options within the massive phpBB MOD community.

The reason I earlier stated this topic might get locked is that I can forsee it turning into a nuts-and-bolts comparing and debate topic between phpBB and other forum software. "My dog is bigger than your dog." If this topic is going to discuss the phpBB software and it's development and feature policies, sure thing. If it's going to turn into phpBB/vB/IPB Bashfest 2005, it's gone. ;)

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Post by joewhite »

some very interesting points given, which i don't have much to stand on since i am new to all of this, but php3.0 sounds like its going to be a nice improvement and i can't wait till its ready to roll..
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Post by djr32 »

iguanairs - most of the features you mention (a template editor particularly) would seem fairly peripheral to forum software, even though they might be quite an interesting project in their own right. But the downside would surely be a loss in flexibility - the philosophy of phpBB seems to be to keep the code as simple as possible, making it fairly easy to customise a forum in ways that the developers never even thought of.
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Post by YushDon »

Although valid points have been listed on phpBB in regards to its shortcomings, I don't think any other forum software comes anywhere close in the impact it has made on the life of web users. All for free!

However, my main (and only worries), are the security scare that are issued against it, the latest coming this morning in an email from Security Space read it here.

Maybe it's an issue which has already been solved but the warning state that all phpBB "versions up to 2.0.14 are known to be vulnerable" and that users should "pgrade to a later version." But version 2.0.14 is the laterst version!

Full credit though to the developers for producing updates and bug fixes whenever such breeches have been reported.
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Post by iguanairs »

Hello,
I would completely respect the mod team for closing this topic if someone decided to turn it into a bash fest. Those posts don't remain on my sites, and I wouldn' expect for them to remain here.

There some needless things found in VB. I agree that the calendar is not useful. Granted, you can add events to it, and it lists the birthdays for the month, but it isn't needed.
iguanairs - most of the features you mention (a template editor particularly) would seem fairly peripheral to forum software, even though they might be quite an interesting project in their own right. But the downside would surely be a loss in flexibility-


The "editor"(for lack of a better term,lol) is actually the files themselves. Instead of them being placed in a folder within the directory for editting, they are located within the Admin CP. Whatever you can do a TPL file, I can do within my ACP and have the same desired result, in a fraction of the time. Its the ease that I am referring to. I don't want people from any of the sites to be swayed. All of the forum applications have their benefits and downsides.

When I switched to PHPBB, I lost a great deal of accessibility. Though I still had control over the items missing from the admincp, it was more work to accomplish things that I am use to being able to do within minutes.

I prefer to FTP files opposed to using file managers through server control panels. So for me, I needed to either download the files necassary to make the edits, edit them, and then upload them, to see the results. In the time it takes to download the files, I could have already edited half the files and have saved them.

Here is a good example. The header and footer files control the main table. If I wanted to redice the body of my site, header, and footer, I could do so in under 20 seconds via the admincp. When styling a site, this is wonderful. The template structure that they use is wonderful. It is exactly the same thing as editing the tpl files, only I have easier access, so there is no loss of flexibility. In fact, I would say that it is more flexible. Having the controls at your finger tips means you can do more, in a shorter amount of time.

Modifications that require some decent editing means you need to put a "slot" aside for the installation and debugging if necassary. With vb, I can install 90% of the modifications within 10 minutes. Any templates that need to be edited require minimal work. The php files require the download,edit,upload method. Seeing as I cut having to download, edit,and upload the tpl files, I get done a lot faster than the previous method.

The phrase manager in itself is another great feature. My boards are tweaked immensly. I add things all the time. I optimize all the time.

The phrase manager contains all the phrases found within the main_lang.php file.

I can edit, add, and even translate ANY phrase used on my forums. For obvious reasons, this is great. Especially for members that speak dual or foriegn languages. The edits are easy to follow, are quickly accessible, and help to motivate them into changing them. It also reduces the chance for human error, which everyone knows plays a major factor in installing anything to these sites.

I am not knocking PHPBB. I think it is a great application. I personally would like to see some of the functionality that I have seen elsewhere. I am a huge fan of open source code. mainly because I like to dabble in the code myself. So if this application had some of the features I have noticed, I think it would be in my best interest to use this application over VB. But as it is now, I feel VB has more control and diversification with the controls than PHPBB.

I am going to install a test site this afternoon when i return from work. I honestly believe that everyone will understand better if they can see what it is I am talking about. The ease of use is great.

I agree with some of the coders on this site. I too would like to see some of the needless stuff removed. Some things are useless, while others I really wouldn't be able to do without. They make my life so much easier.

I think that comparing the 2 may not have been the best way to approach this thread. Those that have used VB, and then tried PHPBB would understand where I am coming from. Those that have used PHPBB and never tried VB are firm in their convictions that they have everything they need.

It really is difficult to go from something that allows so much control and options to something that requires twice the work to attain the same results.

I look forward to your new release. I would love to have the control I have now with VB using this application. That would thrill me. lol

In the same instant, if you require any beta testers, I have 4 servers. I would be more than willing to host one of your new version on one of my servers and give it the testing that my staff could easily do. (I have 11 people that work for my sites. They would easily test every feature that the newest version has available. I use them to debug my VB's after I have gone in and made all of my modifications and enhancements.)

Well, time to get ready for work. I appreciate the designers and staff keeping this post up. I anticipated it being dropped the moment it was viewed.

Honestly critiquing an application can only lead to improvements. Thanks again and I will be back on later with the test VB installed.
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Post by dhn »

iguanairs:
Again, there is going to be a texteditor for the compiled template files in the phpBB 3.0 Olympus AdminCP. And there is also going to be a little surprise regarding theme editing. You'll see.

So, no need to further make your point, as the next version of this software will feature almost exactly what you want and need in terms of style / template editing. :)

Old screenshot from a time before vB 3.0 was out (not going to look like this in the final version, but you should get the idea):

Image

[Edit: Swapped image for CVS a few weeks later (Jan '03 vs Dec '02) which show templates in their correct decompiled form - SHS`]
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