Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

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GaiaBudz
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Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:24 pm
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GaiaBudz
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Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by GaiaBudz »

I love phpbb, and I have been familiar with the software since phpbb2. Compared to how it was then, to where it is now. phpbb has definitely become extremely user friendly, it is far more customizable than ever before. Especially with the introduction of extensions, adding features and themes have never been easier. Unless you want really extensive customization, you never have to edit a file ever again.

But there is ONE thing I have serious gripes about, “pre-defined groups” the fact I can’t edit them any further than their color or where they’re listed on the staff legend. If I remember correctly previous versions (post phpbb2) allowed these to be edited entirely, I remember even those cheesy “free forum sites” like forumotion that used phpbb3 allowed these to be changed. This is such a minor thing, but it feels like such a step backwards to me, no one should have to edit the language file to change “Global moderators” for example to something else, and I know it is incredibly easy, but that is the problem it is something so mundane that it is tedious. Can’t even select them to not appear in “The Team” what if after you edit the language file to make “Administrators” say “Webmasters” but you don’t want “Webmasters” to appear in “The Team” list, but you want that group to be the root admin group still but just keep it hidden, you can’t even set the group itself to hidden, and that I feel like is a problem.

In short; I propose the Developers make it so the predefined groups can be edited entirely, other than being deleted. Further than their color and position in the staff legend. Their names should be allowed to be changed, whether or not they should appear in “The Team”, and they should be allowed to be set to hidden. Without having to edit with any of the files, despite how simple that may be. Because something so little is such a step backwards in the name of becoming more user friendly

Thank you for the time, and sorry if anything wasn’t clear enough I could always elaborate and rephrase as needed

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by warmweer »

GaiaBudz wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:24 pm
In short; I propose the Developers make it so the predefined groups can be edited entirely, other than being deleted. Further than their color and position in the staff legend. Their names should be allowed to be changed, whether or not they should appear in “The Team”, and they should be allowed to be set to hidden. Without having to edit with any of the files, despite how simple that may be. Because something so little is such a step backwards in the name of becoming more user friendly
I'm against this feature, in fact I'm even against being able to delete predefined groups.
A simple reason for this is that the documentation has to cater for situations recognisable on every single board and using predefined groups is a prerequisite in order to explain the whole group system (and permissions interaction) in the documentation.

If you want groups with similar (or the same) permissions, you can easily copy the group and give it another name, and NOT use the predefined groups (even make them invisible to members).
We should embrace problems, without which there wouldn't be any solutions.

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by GaiaBudz »

warmweer wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:39 pm
GaiaBudz wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:24 pm
In short; I propose the Developers make it so the predefined groups can be edited entirely, other than being deleted. Further than their color and position in the staff legend. Their names should be allowed to be changed, whether or not they should appear in “The Team”, and they should be allowed to be set to hidden. Without having to edit with any of the files, despite how simple that may be. Because something so little is such a step backwards in the name of becoming more user friendly
I'm against this feature, in fact I'm even against being able to delete predefined groups.
A simple reason for this is that the documentation has to cater for situations recognisable on every single board and using predefined groups is a prerequisite in order to explain the whole group system (and permissions interaction) in the documentation.

If you want groups with similar (or the same) permissions, you can easily copy the group and give it another name, and NOT use the predefined groups (even make them invisible to members).
I never proposed deleting them. I think that would potentially cause problems.

I don’t agree in the slightest, and frankly I find that to be rather condescending. Are you implying that being allowed to edit the predefined groups short of deleting them, would cause someone to not understand their roles?
Frankly I find that to be asinine. Being able to change their names, choosing them to be visible or not in “the team” list, or setting them to be hidden from member’s view would not effect anything you said at all. A user would have to understand what those groups mean first, and how to even make their way to the group management section in the ACP, before being able to make those changes anyway.

It is a standard feature in essentially all forum software to be able to at least change the name, and set the visibility settings to the rest of the forum of the root user groups, you have been able to do this since phpbb2, granted you could not change the staff legend without editing the files then.

I want to edit the predefined groups without having to go into the language files, and just because they can’t be seen on the staff legend, you can’t set them to hidden and they will still appear in “The Team” list

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by warmweer »

GaiaBudz wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:51 pm
I never proposed deleting them. I think that would potentially cause problems.
I mentioned that because you mentioned that it was possible to delete them post phpBB2 (something I can't even remember).
GaiaBudz wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:51 pm
I don’t agree in the slightest, and frankly I find that to be rather condescending. Are you implying that being allowed to edit the predefined groups short of deleting them, would cause someone to not understand their roles?
I don't see why that anything I mentioned is condescending. The point I was trying to make (but apparently failed miserably) is that the documentation uses the predefined groups in examples. Renaming those groups introduces a factor which could cause confusion (for that same reason I feel that those specific group names should also not be allowed to be re-used). Not all founders read the documentation (in fact, from what I notice quite a few don't even know where to find the documentation, or only start reading after encountering problems).
GaiaBudz wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:51 pm
Frankly I find that to be asinine.
...
You're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine (however asinine it may be).
OK, I actually didn't know they can't be set to hidden (I need to read through the documentation again and perhaps test to verify that)
We should embrace problems, without which there wouldn't be any solutions.

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by david63 »

I don't see a problem with most of the idea apart from renaming them - that would become a nightmare for support
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by warmweer »

david63 wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:38 pm
I don't see a problem with most of the idea apart from renaming them - that would become a nightmare for support
Indeed!
Making a predefined group hidden doesn't bother me at all, neither changing the permissions settings (it's logical that these can be changed), but renaming or deleting them is asking for trouble.
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by GaiaBudz »

Yeah I definitely agree that deleting them wouldn’t be good, and I could be mistaken I just remember being able to delete them since the default admin by default had admin permissions regardless of group and thus could access ACP regardless.

I don’t see any reason as to why being able to change their name would cause any kind of confusion, or complications with support or users. You have to learn what those groups even are first before you can change them, and changing them can be easily added to documentation. We are talking about a change in customization that is minuscule, with little to no learning curve.

I just think it is rather weird that this is free open source software, that the user can change any of the code at will, but yet such a basic thing like changing the name of predefined groups isn’t a thing and it should be

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

you can change the names of the default groups.

language/en/common.php around line 330

only change the text on the right side in between the single quotes.

be precise , if you make a mistake the whole board may not work until you go back and undo it.
GaiaBudz wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:23 am
I just think it is rather weird that this is free open source software, that the user can change any of the code at will, but yet such a basic thing like changing the name of predefined groups isn’t a thing and it should be
that is your opinion that it should be a standard setting. this is the first time in all these years that I have heard anyone say that. I have seen others asking how to change the names but not that it should be a standard thing.

point is, everything can't be a standard setting. phpbb started off being a basic bulletin board software with everything else being a MOD and now a Extension.
it is still trying to keep the bloat down to the minimum.

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by Scanialady »

If the names of the default groups were changed, I would fear problems with the permission settings of newly installed extensions. These set settings for the standard groups. If the standard groups are not available, wouldn't it cause confusion in the database?
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by Paul »

Extensions should really not set permissions based on groups, but only set them on roles.
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by Scanialady »

yes, you are right. That was it what I meant
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by GaiaBudz »

Scanialady wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:47 pm
If the names of the default groups were changed, I would fear problems with the permission settings of newly installed extensions. These set settings for the standard groups. If the standard groups are not available, wouldn't it cause confusion in the database?
I would only see something like that being an issue if you could delete the groups.

I am merely suggesting that the predefined group’s names be permissible to be edited by the administrator. As well as their permissions to be edited so if someone chooses they can place them as hidden from the forum and not appear on “The Team” listing

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by KevC »

GaiaBudz wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:02 pm
As well as their permissions to be edited so if someone chooses they can place them as hidden from the forum and not appear on “The Team” listing
You can already do that.

For most boards I think the default names suit them just fine. The times when I've seen support requests to change it is because they have a very specific subject (often military) or role playing game (where people want to be titles like lords or wizards or something) and there's probably a case for an extension in those cases.
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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by GaiaBudz »

KevC wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:14 pm
GaiaBudz wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:02 pm
As well as their permissions to be edited so if someone chooses they can place them as hidden from the forum and not appear on “The Team” listing
You can already do that.

For most boards I think the default names suit them just fine. The times when I've seen support requests to change it is because they have a very specific subject (often military) or role playing game (where people want to be titles like lords or wizards or something) and there's probably a case for an extension in those cases.
I know you work here, so please correct me if I’m wrong. But I am fairly certain that you can’t change the predefined groups that they don’t appear in “The Team” listing.

You’re right, there isn’t anything wrong with the names, they serve a good general purpose, if you are someone who doesn’t wish to change their names. But people should be able to change their names if they want, at ease, without having to go into the language files and edit them that way.

Just to reiterate to everyone I am not suggesting they be deletable, I just vaguely remember them being so “back in the day”

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Re: Allow Customization of Predefined Groups

Post by KevC »

GaiaBudz wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:34 pm
I know you work here, so please correct me if I’m wrong. But I am fairly certain that you can’t change the predefined groups that they don’t appear in “The Team” listing.
Admin panel> users and groups > Manage group positions
At the bottom you can select any group to appear or not on the team page.

Or
manage groups > settings
Display group on teampage: NO
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