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Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
by wmorg
Hi.

I propose two ideas aimed at giving full support to the content of the forums in terms of guaranteeing content over time.

It is about guaranteeing that the contents took place on a certain day / hour (moment), and that they have not been altered since a certain moment.

For this, two sources of support:


1) That the time stamping of the messages comes from a TSA (Time Stamping Authority). A TSA With API I suppose better. And the TSA guarantee must be visible.


2) That the content of the forums has a chain of blocks (a system hash based) that guarantees the existence of those contents from the time the time stamp occurs.

In case that mining work could become a lot of load (too heavy, as for example happens to bitcoin mining), blockchains could be made by threads or other units smaller than the entire forum.


I leave here the basic ideas, in the absence of debugging for their development.

Kind regards.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:19 am
by david63
Sounds a lot of massive overkill for a discussion board - and if that level of security is required then I would suggest that any BB is not the correct tool to be using

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:57 pm
by warmweer
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
1) That the time stamping of the messages comes from a TSA (Time Stamping Authority). A TSA With API I suppose better. And the TSA guarantee must be visible.
Could you provide a use case (forumwise) where this would be required?
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
2) That the content of the forums has a chain of blocks (a system hash based) that guarantees the existence of those contents from the time the time stamp occurs.
Are you implying nothing can be deleted ... ever?
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
In case that mining work could become a lot of load (too heavy, as for example happens to bitcoin mining), blockchains could be made by threads or other units smaller than the entire forum.
What the .. :roll: ??? Are we using the same product? A free and public open software forum?
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
I leave here the basic ideas, in the absence of debugging for their development.
Personal opinion, my own that is ;) ... this idea doesn't need a timestamp from a TSA nor does its permanent existence need to be guaranteed. Anything needing that kind of "security" shouldn't be on a public commercial server anyway.
Perhaps I misunderstood the whole idea and this is nothing more than an early 2021 April fool's prank. :lol:

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:31 pm
by wmorg
david63 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:19 am
Sounds a lot of massive overkill for a discussion board - and if that level of security is required then I would suggest that any BB is not the correct tool to be using

It is not a level of security issue. It is a content certification issue. It's not the same.

I will try to explain it in more detail:

Obviously there are many forums that do not need that degree of certification, but there may be many others to which, either because of the subject of the forum, or because of the need or the right of users that what they say is certified as said at any given time (original ideas, prospective analysis, etc.), that contribution of guarantee of contents (time stamp - contents) is a very interesting complement.

Sound more logical and appropriate?

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:55 pm
by wmorg
warmweer wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:57 pm
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
1) That the time stamping of the messages comes from a TSA (Time Stamping Authority). A TSA With API I suppose better. And the TSA guarantee must be visible.
Could you provide a use case (forumwise) where this would be required?
Done in my answer to david63.

warmweer wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:57 pm
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
2) That the content of the forums has a chain of blocks (a system hash based) that guarantees the existence of those contents from the time the time stamp occurs.
Are you implying nothing can be deleted ... ever?
No.

As I said, there were the basic ideas in the absence of debugging for development.

It is obvious that it is necessary to be able to edit and delete messages, as it is also true that even in forums where this capacity that I propose comes in handy, there may be many messages that do not need to certify the content and the time stamp.

One possibility is to add a message or message chunk to the certified blockchain, only on user demand.

warmweer wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:57 pm
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:20 am
I leave here the basic ideas, in the absence of debugging for their development.
Personal opinion, my own that is ;) ... this idea doesn't need a timestamp from a TSA nor does its permanent existence need to be guaranteed. Anything needing that kind of "security" shouldn't be on a public commercial server anyway.
Perhaps I misunderstood the whole idea and this is nothing more than an early 2021 April fool's prank. :lol:
As I said in my answer to david63, it is not a security issue. It is a content certification issue. It's not the same.


Thank you all.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:26 pm
by Lumpy Burgertushie
every post made in phpbb has a time and date stamp by default.

look at your posts in this topic you will see exactly when you posted them. that should be enough for just about any use in my opinion.


robert

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:49 pm
by warmweer
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:26 pm
every post made in phpbb has a time and date stamp by default.

look at your posts in this topic you will see exactly when you posted them. that should be enough for just about any use in my opinion.
Not really as some moderators with edit permissions can change the contents without changing the timestamp.
Still, I doubt this is something for widespread use - seems more like something for an extension.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:50 pm
by Brf
I am not sure what certifying a timestamp on my post is going to do. There is no proof of who I am or who might be using my computer. For all you know, my cat could be typing this, so what good is a certified timestamp going to do?

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:08 pm
by wmorg
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:26 pm
every post made in phpbb has a time and date stamp by default.

look at your posts in this topic you will see exactly when you posted them. that should be enough for just about any use in my opinion.


robert

But this stamp depends on the forum server, and the forum server depends on its owner, so this stamp could be not accurate or even fake.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:16 pm
by wmorg
Brf wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:50 pm
I am not sure what certifying a timestamp on my post is going to do. There is no proof of who I am or who might be using my computer. For all you know, my cat could be typing this, so what good is a certified timestamp going to do?

There are two things:

1) Certifying the timestamp implies timestamp is accurate and true (first step).

2) Certifying contents (second step) implies that user X said Y on some date/time. Derivative or collateral matters are this; collateral issues with its considerations that won't apply or will be insignificant in mostly cases where certification would be required.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:25 pm
by Brf
Well, I can guarantee that neither of those would be implemented into phpBB vanilla software. If you are looking into integrating them into your own board, I would suggest posting in the extensions and/or Wanted! forums.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:26 pm
by wmorg
To give a very practical example of the usefulness of what I propose:

Suppose someone wants to discuss a patentable idea with other people.

And like this are many many others; claim the originality of ideas, analysis, etc.

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:54 pm
by Lumpy Burgertushie
the fact that the timestamp is that of the server means nothing. however you see this certification being done, somebody has to
pick a time. the timestamp of the server you are using is no less reliable than any other way to certify the timestamp etc.

I can't really see any way to do something like this that would have any real meaning.


robert

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:55 pm
by david63
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:26 pm
Suppose someone wants to discuss a patentable idea with other people.
But as I said before if you need that level of security/certification or whatever then a public BB is not the right tool to be using, in my opinion,

Re: Time and contents guaranteed.

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:25 pm
by warmweer
wmorg wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:26 pm
Suppose someone wants to discuss a patentable idea with other people.

And like this are many many others; claim the originality of ideas, analysis, etc.
And ??? If I patent that idea before you, there's not much you'll be able to do about it. It's your word against mine and I've got 3 witnesses who recommended I take a patent on my idea because they saw that someone else was taking credit for it. 8-)