Terminology suggestion

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Graham
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Post by Graham »

If you believe that this is an issue, please file a bug report under the Language pack category so that it can be assigned to the relevant person to look at
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SHS`
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Re: Terminology suggestion

Post by SHS` »

Dan East wrote: Instead of Delete it may be more concise to call it Remove. I had some reservations about Deleting a user from there in the event that it would actually delete the user. After testing it out I received a message "User removed from group", so obviously the command does just remove them from the group.

Dan East


The wonderful thing about the English language is that there are synonyms... different words which mean exactly the same thing.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results ... ord=delete

It's "Delete" because it does actually delete the user from the user-group. There's this wonderful thing called context... it's not going to delete the user from the forum since such an action is in the wrong place.

Changing it to "Remove" is of no worth since it is semantically the same as "Delete". It would actually remove the user from the user-group, though there may be users whom fear it might remove users from the forum. Even though such an action would be contextually illogical.

This is a classic "What colour should the bike-shed be?"... phpBB3's bike-shed is staying the same colour, though if you don't like it on your own forum, you're welcome to tweak the language pack as you see fit.
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Grinch
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Post by Grinch »

I agree with you. Remove and Delete mean virtually the same thing. But the word Delete has a very permanent sound to it, and a carries a tone of negativity. I can understand why someone would suggest the word "Remove" as the better choice. That's because it is the better choice.
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karlsemple
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Post by karlsemple »

Grinch wrote: I can sum this up in three words, "User Acceptance Testing" (also known as UAT). UAT is part of the cycle that is performed by those that have usability in mind. Developers don't usually have the end user in mind. This is why companies have the different teams involved in developing products. The end result is a better quality product that is easier to use.

The bottom line, don't dismiss the user suggestions so quickly. After all, these are the people that have to use the product every day. They should be allowed to provide input.



I did not dismiss the suggestion, whether something is dismissed or not is nothing to do with me. I simply stated the user guide would go a long way to clearing up any confusion over the purpose of features/buttons.

My take on a user interface is it needs to be clean and tidy and concise. The detail should be kept in the userguide. A good interface is like a "key" or "index" for a userguide, but at the same time should help remind you of a features function if you only need a memory jog. A good layout with good labeling is still not a substitute for reading the manual. changing it from "delete" to "remove" may be the better option, but again, many users will still be baffled by that, and this was my point. I did not realize it would be taken in such a bad way. However at no point did i dismiss the original post, or did I say the suggestion was bad :)
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Dr.Death
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Post by Dr.Death »

My 2 cents:

Remove sounds better as Delete in the context of Managing Groups
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karlsemple
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Post by karlsemple »

As the confirmation message says "User removed from group" and not "User deleted from group", I agree "remove" would be the better option if only to keep some continuity.
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darkoo
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Post by darkoo »

HEHE this is getting fun!!

Choise of word douse not depend on history but on comprehending its meaning, and that can differ from people to people, since generations of human kind tend to change the language.

What if I said "user removed from group" should instead be "User exiled from group" since removed may mean re-moved like re-organized, if I look at the meaning as separated words. What I mean is that everyone who is not a linguistic professor would understand that delete/remove/exile and etc meens delete/remove/exile from group and not from forum becouse this button depends on the context it exists in.

So why dont we go on and find some bugs that is more important. And let the developers take care of them.

If this is still important to some of u please submit it to bugtracker, then will see what the developers think...



Wooow I made it in time to edit my post and say that I dont imply that im a linguistic professor. So dont point your weapons at me!:) :)
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karlsemple
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Post by karlsemple »

Which has been my point all along. No matter what word is used there is going to be a group of people who will think another word is better suited. At some point surely the developers are going to have to pick a word and stick with it and of course give a detailed clear explanation of the feature in the user guide. That way anyone not sure on a features function, derived from its labeling can then look up what it does in the manual. :)

Ultimately the original poster got his reply from the developers, submit it as a bug report and then they will/can look at it.
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Dan East
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Post by Dan East »

As a software developer, Delete and Remove have very different connotations to me. Delete is to deallocate or destroy something, causing an object's destructor to be called. Remove is to take an object out of a set, like a linked list or array, but the object still exists.

Back in the context of phpBB, I think we all agree that Deleting a User and Deleting a User from a Group are two vastly different things. If an appropriate word is available to disambiguate the two actions, then it is simply good GUI design to refer to them by different verbs: Delete User, Remove User from Group.

If it will alleviate confusion, then that's a good thing, right? Less confusion means less support issues!

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Post by Grinch »

I think the reason this one has gotten so much attention is because it really is a silly misuse of labels. It's one of those things that need to be changed, but will be so low on the priority list that it will probably never happen.
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SHS`
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Post by SHS` »

Dan East wrote: As a software developer, Delete and Remove have very different connotations to me. Delete is to deallocate or destroy something, causing an object's destructor to be called. Remove is to take an object out of a set, like a linked list or array, but the object still exists.


By your "logic", undelete doesn't exist then? As a person that uses the English language, "delete" and "remove" have exactly the same connotation (they are by definition synonyms and are both antonyms of "add").

Furthermore, English can and will use synonyms and on the whole flows better, eg:

"I deleted the file only to undo it later on realising my mistake." (not use "undelete")

"Deletion of the object erases the item from the memory." (not use "deletes")

"In deleting the user from the group, phpBB3 confirmed the user had been removed from it." (not use "deleted")

So... the bike shed stays the same colour. :)
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