3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

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5hocK
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Tue May 10, 2016 7:12 pm

GunChleoc wrote:So, do you want to complain, or do you want to help making it better? Everyone here is a volunteer, you know, the developers included ;)
The phpBB permission system is one of it's greatest strengths, it can also be it's achilles heel from the point of view of anyone first using it. Especially if that person is also getting to grips with hosting, ftp, control panels and the likes. I wonder how many people just give up and go somewhere else for their software.
Making the permission system more user friendly for newcomers without diminishing it's versatility in any way should not be met with idiotic statements (below) which are not just misleading but a lie.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:that is a great idea... oh wait, that is what the default category/forum is setup like.
It's easy to get put off helping when dealing with such a mindset.
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by stevemaury » Tue May 10, 2016 9:54 pm

So, what would make it more user friendly? Don't be shy.
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue May 10, 2016 11:16 pm

5hocK wrote:snip.... Making the permission system more user friendly for newcomers without diminishing it's versatility in any way should not be met with idiotic statements (below) which are not just misleading but a lie.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:that is a great idea... oh wait, that is what the default category/forum is setup like.
It's easy to get put off helping when dealing with such a mindset.

first, I don't appreciate being called a liar. there is nothing in what I said that is not true.

every phpbb board comes with a default category, with a default forum and a default welcome topic.

the permissions are already set on that category and forum for guests to be able to see it and for registered users to see it and be able to post in it.

from what I can see, that is done that way so a new user can see what one looks like and how it works etc.
also, in the admin panel, when creating a new category/forum you have the option of copying the permissions from another category/forum. guess what, there is already one that that is setup for you to copy from that will give all your new categories/forums the standard permissions that most people will want.

now,
do I believe that the documentation for all of phpbb could be more user friendly? absolutely.
do I believe that there are people out there that will not understand it no matter how much documentation there is? absolutely.
do I believe there could be a better way to setup permissions, yep, you bet. I agree with you that there should be a standard set of permissions applied automatically to any new category/forum when it is created.

that is how phpbb2 was and it was one of the things it took me the longest to get used to with 3.0.

ok, you seem to think that you are the only one that understands how to do support and/or teach newbies.
I have been doing this a long time. I pride myself in being able to teach newbies in a way that they can understand easily.

Yes, there are times when, like many others, I will forget what it is like to be a newbie but not very often.

I also believe in teaching someone how to learn things for themselves. when you do it for people, they never learn anything.

you know the old story, feed a fish, teach to fish, life.... etc.

have a nice day and if someone pisses in your cornflakes , remember, don't jump on me because I dont' do that.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by GunChleoc » Wed May 11, 2016 7:58 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:do I believe there could be a better way to setup permissions, yep, you bet. I agree with you that there should be a standard set of permissions applied automatically to any new category/forum when it is created.
I think that's a great idea. This way, those people who aren't techy enough to understand permissions and who have overlooked the copy option will still be able to set things up more easily.

We could also offer them a list of standard permission masks to choose from? Or (faster to implement) preselect the first item (if any) in the list to copy the permissions from, rather than defaulting to "don't copy"?

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Wed May 11, 2016 10:08 am

stevemaury wrote:So, what would make it more user friendly? Don't be shy.
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=2371426&start=15#p14426541
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: every phpbb board comes with a default category, with a default forum and a default welcome topic.

the permissions are already set on that category and forum for guests to be able to see it and for registered users to see it and be able to post in it.

from what I can see, that is done that way so a new user can see what one looks like and how it works etc.
also, in the admin panel, when creating a new category/forum you have the option of copying the permissions from another category/forum. guess what, there is already one that that is setup for you to copy from that will give all your new categories/forums the standard permissions that most people will want.
I'm sure we're all agreed this is a good thing and know why it's done this way. Guess what though, it could be done ever so slightly better.
And guess what, you're presuming everyone who installs phpBB is fluent at reading English.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: do I believe there could be a better way to setup permissions, yep, you bet. I agree with you that there should be a standard set of permissions applied automatically to any new category/forum when it is created.
So why are you contradicting yourself by implying it's not needed because the category and forum is already there? Your natural instinct seems to be to go against any form of change and to belittle anyone who dares to say otherwise.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: that is how phpbb2 was and it was one of the things it took me the longest to get used to with 3.0.
Does anyone know why this was removed? There must have been a good reason I'm overlooking.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: first, I don't appreciate being called a liar. there is nothing in what I said that is not true.
I apologise and take that back. It begs the question though - If you agree with what I said, why reply to my suggestion from such a negative viewpoint?
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by RMcGirr83 » Wed May 11, 2016 10:16 am

5hocK wrote: And guess what, you're presuming everyone who installs phpBB is fluent at reading English.
If you have a suggestion on how to accommodate every person that uses phpBB in their native tongue then please post such.

I guess wordpress is also guilty as charged.
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Wed May 11, 2016 10:56 am

RMcGirr83 wrote:If you have a suggestion on how to accommodate every person that uses phpBB in their native tongue then please post such.
No suggestions, just no need to create a Heath Robinson.
Besides which, if the perms are default set there's no need to be able to read at all.
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by stevemaury » Wed May 11, 2016 12:29 pm

If you wanted to create a confidential forum whose existence should be known only to a few, with a default permission set you either have to shut the board down and create the forum and give it its permissions, or you have you work really fast and hope no one with default permissions notices the forum while you are changing its permissions.

And the $64 dollar question remains - what should the default permission set look like?
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Wed May 11, 2016 12:37 pm

The option to set your own permissions should not be taken away.
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by GunChleoc » Thu May 12, 2016 9:32 am

How about having a dropdown with a selection of the most common cases:

- admin forum (only admins can read and write)
- moderators' forum (only admins & mods can read and write)
- members only forum (only registered users can read or write)
- public user forum (everybody can read, everybody except guests or bots can write)
- guest forum (everybody can read, everybody except bots can write)

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Thu May 12, 2016 10:12 am

If you know about permissions then everything's already in place. My idea (And one that I now know was used in phpBB2 but removed for 3 is for those that skip setting permissions because the phrase "Now you are able to set permissions for this forum." may as well read " The space tomatoes can now be jiggered" - Example) is for a default set of permissions to be used automatically.
eg
  • Bots -> Bot access
  • Guests -> Read only
  • NRU -> Newly registered user access
  • Reg users -> Standard access
And so on.
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by stevemaury » Thu May 12, 2016 4:42 pm

5hocK wrote:The option to set your own permissions should not be taken away.
You are not getting my point. In whatever time it takes between creating the forum and setting (or modifying) its (default) permissions, it may be visible to those to whom it should not be visible.
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Thu May 12, 2016 5:02 pm

stevemaury wrote:You are not getting my point. In whatever time it takes between creating the forum and setting (or modifying) its (default) permissions, it may be visible to those to whom it should not be visible.
If you choose the option to set your own permissions and you choose all No's, forum will not be visible.
It would only default to default if you chose or (missed setting) to not set any permissions - Hypothetically speaking of course.

Edit:
Something along the lines of a pop up (similar to clearing cache) saying "You have not set any permissions, default permissions will be used unless you set them yourself" When trying to navigate away from this page
perms.png
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by stevemaury » Thu May 12, 2016 6:17 pm

You can't set permissions until the form exists. Unless you are suggesting a way to change the default permissions of new forums before they are created. That just introduces another complication. And don't forget to change it back after you create the forum to which you want the new defaults to apply. How is setting all Nos as the default for forums yet to be created any different than what already exists? Besides, why would people read that message any better than the ones they already don't read?
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Re: 3.1.9 New Install - Cant Set Up Categories and Forums

Post by 5hocK » Thu May 12, 2016 6:29 pm

stevemaury wrote:How is setting all Nos as the default for forums yet to be created any different than what already exists?
So that this
stevemaury wrote:In whatever time it takes between creating the forum and setting (or modifying) its (default) permissions, it may be visible to those to whom it should not be visible.
Doesn't happen.
stevemaury wrote:Besides, why would people read that message any better than the ones they already don't read?
If they didn't read it then
5hocK wrote:"You have not set any permissions, default permissions will be used unless you set them yourself" When trying to navigate away from this page
comes into play (or anyway that will create default perms if none are set)
A thread is pretty much a topic. Stop with the pedantics will ya.

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