Macedonia is Greece!

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Apolloneos
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Apolloneos » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:51 pm

But connection of modern day Greeks with ancient Macedonians is tenuous, at best
This does not stand.
You call a part of your country Macedonia, (present day Slavic) Macedonians call their country Macedonia, both are, geographically, parts of ancient Macedonia. What's wrong with that?
The wrong is that they say, that they are Macedonians (but they are not) and they arrogate the Macedonian culture (which is Greek culture). You can not support this unhistorical and unfair attitude. If you do this, is like you are against Greece. So, the language pack of Slavs, while it is called "Macedonian", it supports the country of Skopje and is irreverence against Greece.

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:57 pm

Apolloneos wrote:I didn't said anything about "Yugoslav" language. It's a spelling mistake. I meaned the country of Yugoslavia.
See this postage stamp from Yugoslavia, where FYROM is called Vardaska:
Re: Yugoslavia, OK.

You will notice that on that map Slovenia is called "Dravska", Serbia "Moravska", "Drinska" and whatever the third was, that Kosovo was divided between three units etc. The idea was to make territorial division as far from ethnic boundaries as possible. Hence the names after rivers. But then, Turks had different names for those two vilayets that more or less comprise modern Greece, no?

Re: ISO; see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:m
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

Call yourself what you want; nobody has the right to stop you. Give that right to others.

Cheers!

P.S. Mr. Administrator, feel free to tell us to shut up and switch to private messages whenever you get fed up with our argument :lol:

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karlsemple
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by karlsemple » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:09 am

Apolloneos wrote:
karlsemple wrote:I no longer see the point of this topic as it is turning into an all out argument. If there is a genuine issue with this language pack then contact Acyd Burn or VIc not sure which one is dealing with language packs at the moment. If this is just an argument about history and actually makes no real difference the language then please leave it be. Either way can we please keep this with in the rules, that means posting in a respectful way to other members....and font size normal please.
I started this topic to tell the administration, that the "Macedonian language pack" must change name, because of the reason i explain above.
Also, the phpbb team can find historical proofs here: PAN-MACEDONIAN ASSOCIATION

I am fully aware of your reasons for starting the topic, that how ever does not make you immune to the board rules ;)
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Spartacos
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Spartacos » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:07 pm

when politics mess with geography and history u get...vardarska

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgre ... 180650809/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgre ... 180650809/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientgre ... 180650809/

and the modern state of fyrom:
http://dl.ncbuy.com/imp/maps/mk-map.jpg
But connection of modern day Greeks with ancient Macedonians is tenuous, at best.
continous greek population,national identity,language,still how about claiming julius ceasar being i.e. slovakian or king Solomon being a jordanian

manton
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by manton » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:05 am

karlsemple wrote:I no longer see the point of this topic as it is turning into an all out argument. If there is a genuine issue with this language pack then contact Acyd Burn or VIc not sure which one is dealing with language packs at the moment. If this is just an argument about history and actually makes no real difference the language then please leave it be. Either way can we please keep this with in the rules, that means posting in a respectful way to other members....and font size normal please.
Yes, Hellenes we are offended reading that there is Macadonian language but karlsemple is right. We must not confuse history and the macedonian dispute on this forum. This is a phpbb and the issue is language.
The language that citizens of FYROM use nowdays has nothing to do with the Ancient Macedonian that never existed anyway, because Ancient Macedonians were using the Hellenic one.
There is no Macedonian language, please, reffer here

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:25 am

manton wrote:There is no Macedonian language, please, reffer here
The Wikipedia article you refer to and several related ones summarize the question pretty fairly (it would seem that authors were neither Greek nor Macedonian :D ). However, I don't see how you drew the conclusion from those articles that Macedonian language does not exist (ah, perhaps you meant ancient Macedonian).

Let me reiterate: people have right to name themselves and their language as they wish, even when it might lead to confusion. OTOH, other languages might adopt different local names in order to resolve (or, sometimes, introduce ;) ) the confusion.

An example or two:
  • English name for a country formerly a part of Soviet Union and for a US state is the same (namely, "Georgia"). Nobody seems to be confused or offended.
  • There was an Illyrian tribe called "Dalmatae". During the times when Romans ruled both coasts of Adriatic a Romance language "Dalmatian" developed (some remnants of it existed until very recently). Today, "Dalmatians" ("Dalmatinci") is term used for Croats living in Dalmatia used as geographic term, meaning eastern Adriatic coast from approximately Zadar to Boka Kotorska (and for a breed of dogs :) ). I didn't notice that Albanians (presumably descendants of those Illyrians) complain about present use of term "Dalmatia".
Some of the comments here seem to imply "once Greek, always Greek" opinion, a very dangerous position (used by other extreme nationalists, too, not only Greek ones). Not a square meter of our continent exist which was not called home by dozens of different ethnic groups over the course of history. It is just a matter of choosing a point in time, and, say, Dalmatia I mentioned could be claimed by Croats, Italians, Celts, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans, or that pre-Indoeuropean folsk that spread from Black Sea region almost ten thousand years ago and whose genetic markers are still found in about 5% of Balkans population (and whoever declared themselves descendants of these).

Of course, Macedonians don't help the issue by putting a symbol from pre-Slavic archaeological find on their flag or naming the Skopje airport "Alexander the Great"....

So, let's name the language the way those who speak it and scholars who study it call it: "Macedonian" ("Makedonski"). There is no confusion, because modern Hellenic Macedonian does not exist. If I were a Macedonian, I would not complain very much about using something like "Macedonian (Slavic)", either...

Cheers!

Apolloneos
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Apolloneos » Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:58 am

bazoo513 wrote:I didn't notice that Albanians (presumably descendants of those Illyrians) complain about present use of term "Dalmatia".
It is historically proved that they are not descendants of Illyrians, but this is not a subject to explain here.

bazoo513 wrote: Call yourself what you want; nobody has the right to stop you. Give that right to others.
I want to call myself with your name, your surname and i insist that your house, your things are mine. So, have i this right? :?:
bazoo513 wrote:Of course, Macedonians don't help the issue by putting a symbol from pre-Slavic archaeological find on their flag or naming the Skopje airport "Alexander the Great"....
I say it again: They are not Macedonians. Macedonians are Greeks.

skullJ
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by skullJ » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:26 pm

The fact is that Macedonia as country doesn’t exist right now.
But Macedonia as region in Greece exists!
FYROM is the officially name of this country.

I am from Macedonia, too! Actually I was born in the biggest City in that we call “Pella”, the home town of Alexander the Great in Greece!

Please respect our history and our life-style and stop that conversation.

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:45 pm

Apolloneos wrote:
bazoo513 wrote:I didn't notice that Albanians (presumably descendants of those Illyrians) complain about present use of term "Dalmatia".
It is historically proved that they are not descendants of Illyrians, but this is not a subject to explain here.
Oh, I forgot, they are Greeks, of course :P How is it "historically proved"?
Apolloneos wrote:
bazoo513 wrote: Call yourself what you want; nobody has the right to stop you. Give that right to others.
I want to call myself with your name, your surname and i insist that your house, your things are mine. So, have i this right? :?:
They don't insist that your land is theirs, it is precisely other way around. As for my name, feel free to use it...
Apolloneos wrote:
bazoo513 wrote:Of course, Macedonians don't help the issue by putting a symbol from pre-Slavic archaeological find on their flag or naming the Skopje airport "Alexander the Great"....
I say it again: They are not Macedonians. Macedonians are Greeks.
Yes, and Romanians are Italians (who obviously have monopoly on all names derived from "Rome"), and Brittons (from UK) are French (or perhaps those from Brittany in France are English)....

You are nuts!

Spartacos
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Spartacos » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:37 pm

Oh, I forgot, they are Greeks, of course :P How is it "historically proved"?
it seems to me that u have not something to contribute apart from low level sarcasm and trolling
They don't insist that your land is theirs, it is precisely other way around.
30 seconds of searching will reveal maps that picture vardarska annexing land from bulgaria and greece
these maps are also at the scoolbooks and classroms of skopje
also they were stated at the vardarskan constitution
Yes, and Romanians are Italians (who obviously have monopoly on all names derived from "Rome"), and Brittons (from UK) are French (or perhaps those from Brittany in France are English)....
can u prove any citizen of romania regarding augustus or nero as a romanian,or circulating maps with romania annexing italian lands?

also note that GB/UK is represented at the eu as UNITED KINGDOM and NOT as great BRITAIN because of france's veto

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:44 pm

Spartacos wrote:it seems to me that u have not something to contribute apart from low level sarcasm and trolling
There is an appropriate English proverb about pots and kettles... :P
30 seconds of searching will reveal maps that picture vardarska annexing land from bulgaria and greece
these maps are also at the scoolbooks and classroms of skopje
also they were stated at the vardarskan constitution
I didn't read their constitution, but will try and find some time to do that and come back to you. Regarding maps, I don't know for schoolbooks, but I can assure you that official maps hanging in places like ministries have borders where they used to be when Macedonia was in Yugoslav federation.

You might have seen a map depicting extent of Slavic Macedonians as ethnic group. Yes, that extends into Greece and Bulgaria, just as there are Albanians in Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece, Turks in Greece and Greeks in Turkey etc. Of course, several decades ago there were many more of them. :(
can u prove any citizen of romania regarding augustus or nero as a romanian,or circulating maps with romania annexing italian lands?
I didn't quite understand this. If you meant that Macedonians (Slavic ones :) ) are trying to appropriate Alex the Great's heritage, well, you might have a point (as I already mentioned).
also note that GB/UK is represented at the eu as UNITED KINGDOM and NOT as great BRITAIN because of france's veto
Err, the name of the country is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The wish to keep NI is the reason for the name, not French opposition. Be more diligent in checking your "facts".

Cheers!

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:55 pm

Spartacos wrote:30 seconds of searching will reveal maps that picture vardarska annexing land from bulgaria and greece
these maps are also at the scoolbooks and classroms of skopje
also they were stated at the vardarskan constitution
I found their constitution on a number of places on the Web, for example here. About borders they say "The existing borders of the Republic of Macedonia are inviolable" and not much more. Perhaps I overlooked something important. Show me, please.

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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Apolloneos » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:24 pm

:arrow: The Macedonian History: http://www.macedonia.info/history.htm

bazoo513
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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by bazoo513 » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 am

Apolloneos wrote::arrow: The Macedonian History: http://www.macedonia.info/history.htm
Thanks for the link. Although being essentially a propaganda site, the pages do provide some interesting info. For example, quotes on a page titled FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY clearly show that people from the Republic of Macedonia don't claim Hellenic origin, or any connection with Phil & Alex. They just happen to live in a geographical region called Macedonia for millenia, so they call themselves accordingly.

Chill out people, nobody is after you :D

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Re: Macedonia is Greece!

Post by Apolloneos » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:36 am

bazoo513 wrote: Thanks for the link. Although being essentially a propaganda site, the pages do provide some interesting info. For example, quotes on a page titled FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY clearly show that people from the Republic of Macedonia don't claim Hellenic origin, or any connection with Phil & Alex. They just happen to live in a geographical region called Macedonia for millenia, so they call themselves accordingly.

Chill out people, nobody is after you :D
Read carefully everything you read. I didn’t said that they claim Hellenic origin. Also the page titled FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY shows many opinions expressed from FYROM web sites and other political persons.
Their main opinion is that they believe they are descendants of ancient Macedonians.
Also, you must have seen this: “U.S STATE DEPARTMENT
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. "This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".”


bazoo513 what do you want to prove? You don’t have anything else to do? You registered in this forum only to attack me! Whose behalves do you serve? Care about your country and leave us quiet. :x

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