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Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:38 am
by Tom
Just to throw this out there (even though I believe it already has been) - evolution is not contrary to most religious beliefs, so the origin of the human species is not a question of religious beliefs, it is a question of scientific fact.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:56 am
by Anon
weatherkid wrote:
Semi_Deus wrote:As the Bible and god is in my eyes a story which is made up by some guys in the early years.
read 2 Timothy 3:16
Yo dawg I heard you like circular logic so we put a loop in your reasoning so you can reason while you loop
Semi_Deus wrote:I believe in science and clear facts/proof. Until there is proof for god, I cannot and will not believe in god and the bible.
you don't see animals, life, the whole universe as proof of God?? I think the problem is that you don't want to see proof.
I see a book existing as proof that the book exists.
Semi_Deus wrote:I myself do not believe in god, just by the fact that science has more evidence for its evolution theory, and creation of worlds.
excuse me but there is no documented evidence of evolution or creation, both need to be taken by faith. Even darwin had doubts about his own theory.
Well, you're half right

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:41 am
by Erik Frèrejean
weatherkid wrote:
Semi_Deus wrote:As the Bible and god is in my eyes a story which is made up by some guys in the early years.
read 2 Timothy 3:16
So a story that someone wrote should prove that a story that someone else wrote isn't made up :?.

I'm getting a bit tired about the evolution vs. creation discussion. Last week I received a folder (as did everyone else here in Holland) in house from a Christian organisation that would prove that evolution isn't true.
Now I've red it 3 times to try to understand what they where saying and the point they where trying to make. But as expected it came down to:
6 chapters explaining the difference and that both theories could have a foundation it you look at it from a certain perspective. Followed by a conclusion that told you that the bible was the only one that holds the truth. But based upon what? There was absolute no prove in that store that made the conclusion hold ground.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:38 am
by dellsystem
Anon wrote:Yo dawg I heard you like circular logic so we put a loop in your reasoning so you can reason while you loop
This.
Tom wrote:Just to throw this out there (even though I believe it already has been) - evolution is not contrary to most religious beliefs, so the origin of the human species is not a question of religious beliefs, it is a question of scientific fact.
Very true! I find that most articles attacking evolution do so in a either-or way. Either you're religious and you're against evolution, or you're not and you're for evolution. That's quite interesting, seeing as the two are not mutually exclusive.
One method of evangelism that I've seen a lot recently has to do with painstakingly attempting to refute evolution, with the implied (or sometimes explicit) premise that since evolution is false, then the evangelist's preferred religion is necessarily true. This is pretty fallacious (false dichotomy I believe) so it's curious how often it's repeated.
Erik Frèrejean wrote:But as expected it came down to:
6 chapters explaining the difference and that both theories could have a foundation it you look at it from a certain perspective. Followed by a conclusion that told you that the bible was the only one that holds the truth. But based upon what? There was absolute no prove in that store that made the conclusion hold ground.
Exactly. Perhaps evolution is simply a vehicle or means for evangelists to convert people, through bashing it and convincing possible recruits that the only alternative to this obviously false theory is found in their religion.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:24 pm
by reptileguy
The title of that leaflet can be translated as: 'Evolution or creation? What do you believe?'.
I agree it's a false dichotomy. What could it mean to believe in evolution? Does it mean going to evolutionist churches? Saying prayers to dinosaurs?
Religion is one thing - science is another. Don't mix them up. :D

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:30 pm
by Lumpy Burgertushie
This discussion proves one thing;

you can not use logic when trying to discuss religion with true believers.

the only thing the bible proves is that a book was written by men. It is full of stories told and retold for generations before they were finally written down. Then, the different written texts were gathered together and after many years they were compiled into a book.
you don't see animals, life, the whole universe as proof of God?? I think the problem is that you don't want to see proof.
I have always felt that this is the most asinine argument used for proof of god.

how in the world does the existence of animals, life and the universe prove the existence of anything but animals, life and the universe? ( there are some theories that there is no proof that any of that exists either, but that is another discussion. )

I don't know if god exists, or if the bible or any part of it is based on any facts. However,

NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE!!
If you claim to "know" any of this to be fact, then you are not basing this "knowledge" on anything other than faith.

I am not telling anyone that their beliefs are wrong, just that you can not say that they are absolutely correct and that everyone else is wrong.


robert

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:02 pm
by Erik Frèrejean
Erik Frèrejean wrote:
weatherkid wrote:
Semi_Deus wrote:As the Bible and god is in my eyes a story which is made up by some guys in the early years.
read 2 Timothy 3:16
So a story that someone wrote should prove that a story that someone else wrote isn't made up :?.
Just for the sake to know what I'm/we are talking about I've looked it up:
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version) wrote:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Now I'm curious how this is going to prove Semi_Deus his statement wrong?
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:
you don't see animals, life, the whole universe as proof of God?? I think the problem is that you don't want to see proof.
I have always felt that this is the most asinine argument used for proof of god.

how in the world does the existence of animals, life and the universe prove the existence of anything but animals, life and the universe? ( there are some theories that there is no proof that any of that exists either, but that is another discussion. )
I've quoted this for agreement.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:16 pm
by weatherkid
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I don't know if god exists, or if the bible or any part of it is based on any facts.
you can believe what you want to believe, I can't change that. The point is that there is only one truth concerning this matter. Someone will be wrong, I'm basing my facts on the Bible that has NEVER been wrong all through history. you can give me one thing you think is incorrect. You on the other hand are basing your beliefs on blind faith.

you can make yourself believe with all your heart that Evolution is true. I can't stop that
Anon wrote:I see a book existing as proof that the book exists.
Then how can you as an Evolutionist look at an animal or a plant and say: "Yup this definitaly came from an explosion!!"

the problem with atheists and evolutionists is they claim their theory as FACT





sorry for stirring the pot :|

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:01 pm
by RMcGirr83
weatherkid wrote:Someone will be wrong, I'm basing my facts on the Bible that has NEVER been wrong all through history.
It's all in how one interprets what it is you read. "God's breath...blah, blah, blah"
Then how can you as an Evolutionist look at an animal or a plant and say: "Yup this definitaly came from an explosion!!"
You are joking, right? Here let me help you

Definition of "Evoluntionist"
Dictionary.com wrote:a person who believes in or supports a theory of evolution, esp. in biology.
Has nothing to do with the "Big Bang" theory....which is something TOTALLY different.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:03 pm
by RMcGirr83
BTW, I do hope you are tithing to your local church and the correct amount which should be, according to what I have read, one tenth of your wages/assets.

I wouldn't want you to end up in Hades, Hell, Purgatory or whatever you want to call it because you didn't give "God" enough of your money/assets.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:12 pm
by reptileguy
I'm basing my facts on the Bible that has NEVER been wrong all through history. you can give me one thing you think is incorrect.
Since you ask for it... You may have heard of the four gospels. These are four biographies of Jesus written by four of his disciples. If you read them you will find dozens of discrepancies between them.
The point is that there is only one truth concerning this matter. Someone will be wrong,
That means each of the four gospel writers is wrong at some point.
You on the other hand are basing your beliefs on blind faith.
In this topic, nobody but you has based any statement on faith.
Then how can you as an Evolutionist look at an animal or a plant and say: "Yup this definitaly came from an explosion!!"
Please inform yourself before making such a comment. According to the current scientific knowledge, the Big Bang happened about 10 billion years before life appeared on Earth.
The evolution of species has nothing to do with the Big Bang, nor again with faith or religion.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:34 pm
by Phil
reptileguy wrote:
Then how can you as an Evolutionist look at an animal or a plant and say: "Yup this definitaly came from an explosion!!"
Please inform yourself before making such a comment. According to the current scientific knowledge, the Big Bang happened about 10 billion years before life appeared on Earth. It has nothing to do with the evolution of species.
I think he is referring to abiogenesis (the origin of life) there as opposed to the Big Bang. Regardless, there is no widely-accepted theory with regards to abiogenesis at the moment anyway (there are several regarded as possible but none are concrete, note though that they do all work on top of the Primordial Soup theory that I think he's referring to).

That being said, the Primordial Soup theory is not saying "Yup this definitaly came from an explosion!!", nor does it have anything to do with evolution.

Again, evolution does not explain how life got here. It simply explains what happened after it did.

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:50 pm
by Techie-Micheal
iWisdom wrote:Again, evolution does not explain how life got here. It simply explains what happened after it did.
Which is what I keep saying, but everybody ignores me. People need to stop saying Evolution vs. Creation, that's not it, the topic of discussion is Big Bang vs. Creation.

/me waits for people to once again ignore him

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:38 pm
by EXreaction
Big bang vs creation vs many other hypothesis. :P

The big bang is probably the best for supporting the current knowledge of astronomy and physics, but I am not well enough informed on it all to say that I can agree with it. I'd really like to talk to some of these astronomers and physicists (like the ones who've been on the TV series The Universe).

Re: The Origin of the Species

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:30 pm
by Semi_Deus
Erik Frèrejean wrote: Just for the sake to know what I'm/we are talking about I've looked it up:
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version) wrote:All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Now I'm curious how this is going to prove Semi_Deus his statement wrong?
/me gives High five to Erik