Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Anon » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:39 am

I fully hope that in light of this ruling all ISPs in Sweden are prosecuted and shut down, because they aid their customers in getting access to illegal material.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by lurttinen » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:21 am

Doubt it. It is not final yet. :)
Even then the legitimate use of the internet connection outweighs any piracy claims.
What they do they just raise their price... :P
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Gud » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:37 am

Techie-Micheal wrote:
Green Light wrote:
lurttinen wrote:They were convicted for a year in prison + must pay almost three million euros.
Ofcourse they will appeal, so it might take a lot longer to actually get them in jail. Or any money from them. Or closing down their website...

They were convicted for aiding a felony.
I'm saddened by this. I hope for the best that their appeal is accepted.
Why should it be? They broke the law, knew that they were doing so, and continued anyway. What they got is exactly what I said they would get, this should be no surprise.
Because in Sweden(unlike the U.S) everyone has a right to a fair trial, and that includes getting appeals.

They'll appeal and they'll win. The judgment they recieved is abhorrent and goes against all the swedish legal system stands for.
The great thing about this trial is no matter the outcome, the pirates will win. the Pirate Party has already gotten 5000 more members(myself included), many of the major swedish ISPs have begun deleting records of IP-addresses etc to combat the new IPRED law.

ARRRRR

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:48 pm

Gud wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:
Green Light wrote:
lurttinen wrote:They were convicted for a year in prison + must pay almost three million euros.
Ofcourse they will appeal, so it might take a lot longer to actually get them in jail. Or any money from them. Or closing down their website...

They were convicted for aiding a felony.
I'm saddened by this. I hope for the best that their appeal is accepted.
Why should it be? They broke the law, knew that they were doing so, and continued anyway. What they got is exactly what I said they would get, this should be no surprise.
Because in Sweden(unlike the U.S) everyone has a right to a fair trial, and that includes getting appeals.
Except that in the US, everyone has a right to a fair trial, including appeals. I invite you to read our Bill of Rights, since you are not the first person to state something ridiculous such as this.

Please go back and reread what I said. I did not say that they shouldn't get an appeal, I said I didn't think they should have their appeal accepted.
They'll appeal and they'll win. The judgment they recieved is abhorrent and goes against all the swedish legal system stands for.
The Swedish legal system stands for people aiding crimes taking place? Yeah ... not interested in moving to Sweden anytime soon.
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by EXreaction » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:11 pm

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/17/pirate ... e-bay.html
"Google now can and does do what the Pirate Bay has always done," Edelman says. "And if they're prosecuted, they would have much more interesting arguments in their defense."

By searching for pirated music or video, Google users can easily scan a range of lesser-known pirate sites to dig up illicit content. Those looking for the upcoming film X-Men Origins: Wolverine, for instance, can search for "wolverine torrent." The first result is a link to file-sharing site isoHunt, with a torrent tracker file that allows the user to download the full film. In fact, searches for "wolverine torrent" on Google have more than quadrupled since the movie file was first leaked to peer-to-peer networks on April 5, according to Google Trends.
And again for people who say torrents are illegal, they are not illegal in any way. They contain no copyrighted or illegal data on them, only information about where they can get data from a P2P network.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Green Light » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:32 pm

EXreaction wrote:http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/17/pirate ... e-bay.html
"Google now can and does do what the Pirate Bay has always done," Edelman says. "And if they're prosecuted, they would have much more interesting arguments in their defense."

By searching for pirated music or video, Google users can easily scan a range of lesser-known pirate sites to dig up illicit content. Those looking for the upcoming film X-Men Origins: Wolverine, for instance, can search for "wolverine torrent." The first result is a link to file-sharing site isoHunt, with a torrent tracker file that allows the user to download the full film. In fact, searches for "wolverine torrent" on Google have more than quadrupled since the movie file was first leaked to peer-to-peer networks on April 5, according to Google Trends.
And again for people who say torrents are illegal, they are not illegal in any way. They contain no copyrighted or illegal data on them, only information about where they can get data from a P2P network.
And this is why they will win their appeal :D

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by lurttinen » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:54 pm

Green Light wrote:
EXreaction wrote:http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/17/pirate ... e-bay.html
"Google now can and does do what the Pirate Bay has always done," Edelman says. "And if they're prosecuted, they would have much more interesting arguments in their defense."

By searching for pirated music or video, Google users can easily scan a range of lesser-known pirate sites to dig up illicit content. Those looking for the upcoming film X-Men Origins: Wolverine, for instance, can search for "wolverine torrent." The first result is a link to file-sharing site isoHunt, with a torrent tracker file that allows the user to download the full film. In fact, searches for "wolverine torrent" on Google have more than quadrupled since the movie file was first leaked to peer-to-peer networks on April 5, according to Google Trends.
And again for people who say torrents are illegal, they are not illegal in any way. They contain no copyrighted or illegal data on them, only information about where they can get data from a P2P network.
And this is why they will win their appeal :D
The debate about .torrent files being legal or not is rather pointless at this point.
Legality of the .torrent file was not on trial. Admins of the piratebay and their actions was. :)

As said, they were convicted for aiding a felony. When they appeal, they would need to convince that they did not actually help anyone to commit copyright violations.

I don't see that verdict to change anytime soon. :)
This is just a big show from now on, so get your popcorns and sodas ready. :P
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Anon » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:40 am

Techie-Micheal wrote:
Gud wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:
Green Light wrote:
lurttinen wrote:They were convicted for a year in prison + must pay almost three million euros.
Ofcourse they will appeal, so it might take a lot longer to actually get them in jail. Or any money from them. Or closing down their website...

They were convicted for aiding a felony.
I'm saddened by this. I hope for the best that their appeal is accepted.
Why should it be? They broke the law, knew that they were doing so, and continued anyway. What they got is exactly what I said they would get, this should be no surprise.
Because in Sweden(unlike the U.S) everyone has a right to a fair trial, and that includes getting appeals.
Except that in the US, everyone has a right to a fair trial, including appeals. I invite you to read our Bill of Rights, since you are not the first person to state something ridiculous such as this.
Lol gitmo [but let's not go there]
Please go back and reread what I said. I did not say that they shouldn't get an appeal, I said I didn't think they should have their appeal accepted.
What? They should get an appeal and should simultaneously not get an appeal?
The Swedish legal system stands for people aiding crimes taking place? Yeah ... not interested in moving to Sweden anytime soon.
That is true - a system that is waiting to prosecute Google, ISPs, car makers, gun makers, knife sellers, glass bottle merchants, rocks etc can't be a very good system :)

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:25 pm

Green Light wrote:
EXreaction wrote:http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/17/pirate ... e-bay.html
"Google now can and does do what the Pirate Bay has always done," Edelman says. "And if they're prosecuted, they would have much more interesting arguments in their defense."

By searching for pirated music or video, Google users can easily scan a range of lesser-known pirate sites to dig up illicit content. Those looking for the upcoming film X-Men Origins: Wolverine, for instance, can search for "wolverine torrent." The first result is a link to file-sharing site isoHunt, with a torrent tracker file that allows the user to download the full film. In fact, searches for "wolverine torrent" on Google have more than quadrupled since the movie file was first leaked to peer-to-peer networks on April 5, according to Google Trends.
And again for people who say torrents are illegal, they are not illegal in any way. They contain no copyrighted or illegal data on them, only information about where they can get data from a P2P network.
And this is why they will win their appeal :D
That's not why they were convicted. Go back and reread what I said about why I think what they would be convicted on. :)
Anon wrote: Lol gitmo [but let's not go there]
Let's not go there? You already did. Let's see. First of all, people held there were charged with war crimes against the US, something most countries have provisions for. Secondly, the elected president shut it down.
Please go back and reread what I said. I did not say that they shouldn't get an appeal, I said I didn't think they should have their appeal accepted.
What? They should get an appeal and should simultaneously not get an appeal?
Trying to twist words? I said that they should have the ability (get an appeal), but that they shouldn't have their appeal accepted (win the appeal).
The Swedish legal system stands for people aiding crimes taking place? Yeah ... not interested in moving to Sweden anytime soon.
That is true - a system that is waiting to prosecute Google, ISPs, car makers, gun makers, knife sellers, glass bottle merchants, rocks etc can't be a very good system :)
I find it funny you are trying to argue that Google, gun makers, glass bottle manufacturers, etc. are aiding crimes when I quite clearly stated more than once that it doesn't work that way. First of all, gun makers produce guns, they don't control who buys them. They don't know who buys them. Glass bottle manufacturers sell the bottles to companies who fill the glass bottles with a product. Consumers buy the glass bottles with the product to use the product. Once again, they aren't allowing a crime to take place. Google. Google has bots put out for content searching. That's what they do. They don't know that the content is copyrighted, they scan for things to put in the search engine that are readily accessible via the internet. Google complies with takedown notices unlike The Pirate Bay who have a history of knowingly allowing users to download copyrighted material. That's the difference. Google does not knowingly allow access to proven copyrighted material, whereas TPB does. And that's why TPB got in to trouble. TPB knowingly provided the vehicle for which people can commit crimes, and did nothing to prevent it from happening. So what about car makers? Car makers cannot know or control who buys a car, and does not allow a person to commit a crime with the car. "Well, they produced the car" you say. Except that car makers don't control who buys a car or what is done with it. The friend who eggs them on to drive drunk or doesn't take the car keys, that's the one aiding a crime taking place.

Furthermore, I go back to what I said about intent. Google does not have the intent of allowing access to copyrighted material. TPB does. Google removes the copyrighted material once asked. TPB laughs. Google cooperates. TPB puts up the letters and the ridiculous responses on their website for others to see. Google does the best it can to make sure the law is followed. TPB ignores the law.
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by ant444 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:02 pm

Someone i know wrote this on another forum...
When you buy a product, is it yours ???

If it isn't yours, then the company that sold it to you has a right to tell you what you can and can't do with it.

If it is yours, you have the right to do with it whatever you now choose to. So if you would love to share it with another, then BECAUSE it is yours, you can do with it what you will.

Intellectual property is another way of saying enslavement. For only by being allowed to do with something that you have bought what you will, are you free.

This issue is about companies attempting to OWN people because they have bought a product. This issue is about YOUR freedom.

All of the licensing agreements that you have 'signed' to be able to use a product that you have bought, for instance a computer program, is null and void because you have had to sign it under duress. For if you didn't agree to the contract, you wouldn't be able to use the computer program, which means that you are being forced to sign the contract to be able to use the product. Any time that you are forced to sign a contract, or statement, then it has been done under duress and it is for one, illegal, but more to the point, it is an attempt at enslaving you by attempting to force you to act in a manner that the company that sold you the product wants you to act.

If this is going to be the way it is in our societal structure, then each and every company should then be liable for all of the deaths that happen from people using the products that they sell. Which of course means that all arms manufacturers would be liable for every death from every act of killing that is done with the products that they manufacture and sell. This would then mean that all of those companies would owe compensation, or restitution, to every person effected in whatever way by the death caused by their products. This would include pharmaceutical companies, where in America, 106,000 people a year die from taking prescribed drugs in the exact manner that they are told to. It would include every government that has entered into a war where it 'citizens' are killed. It would include every car manufacturer being liable for all of the deaths that occur involving motor vehicles. Every company would be liable for each and every death ... but this isn't the way that it is.

So why should The Pirate Bay be held accountable for what others do with the service that they are providing ???

When the 'prey' is offered an opportunity to 'escape' the 'predator', then the 'predator' will move out in to the open to attempt to cut off the 'escape' of the 'prey'. The companies that are attempting to enforce The Pirate Bay and all those that use their service to bow down to their mandates have merely shown themselves to be the 'predator'. To be free, we all are required to stand together and tell the companies, governments, etc, that we are free of these bullshit rules and attempts at enforcing them upon people. This would mean that all companies are recognised as what they are, legal fictions, and that they have no power to enforce anything upon any individual. By acting together as one about this issue, we enact the power that we collectively have, because without any buyers a company cannot exist. T.H.E.Y. cannot exist without you. YOU have the power. T.H.E.Y. are a parasitic entity attempting to live off you and control you to act in a manner that is beneficial for them.

Collectively, WE are making this decision. We make this decision with the thoughts, actions, words, that we offer in support of the individual ... or the company. I support the individuals, commonly known of as The Pirate Bay.
:D

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Dog Cow » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:53 pm

Regarding the quote above, I think the author is getting a bit too excited. They just don't want us giving this stuff away to everyone else for free, that's all.

And if I were in the same position-- selling some product to make a profit-- I'd have the exact same attitude.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by lurttinen » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:26 pm

The quote above has one thing wrong, when they say "you bought a program"
You don't buy a program, you buy a license to use it. You could probably buy the program itself, but that would probably cost a lot more.

Therefore, you do not own the program which you claim to have bought. You just own a license to use it.

Just like music. You don't buy the song and own it. You just pay for the privilege to have your copy of it.

So, what do you buy when you "buy" a product?
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Anon » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:27 am

Techie-Micheal wrote:Let's not go there? You already did. Let's see. First of all, people held there were charged with war crimes against the US, something most countries have provisions for. Secondly, the elected president shut it down.
Yes, but just because they may potentially be war criminals (Remember: without civilian-grade court cases you can't be sure), that didn't excuse the activities that went on there
What? They should get an appeal and should simultaneously not get an appeal?
Trying to twist words? I said that they should have the ability (get an appeal), but that they shouldn't have their appeal accepted (win the appeal).
I'm not twisting anyone's words. Had you said "I didn't think they should win their appeal" initially it would have been better. Having an appeal accepted simply means that the court will agree to hear it. It says nothing about whether they win or not.
That is true - a system that is waiting to prosecute Google, ISPs, car makers, gun makers, knife sellers, glass bottle merchants, rocks etc can't be a very good system :)
I find it funny you are trying to argue that Google, gun makers, glass bottle manufacturers, etc. are aiding crimes when I quite clearly stated more than once that it doesn't work that way. First of all, gun makers produce guns, they don't control who buys them. They don't know who buys them.
That is a terrible defence. It doesn't apply to banks, it apparently doesn't apply to TPB, so why should it apply to gun sales? If the Gun manufacturers were concerned they would demand that retailers supply them with access to who buys the guns, and they could say "Don't sell to customer XYZ". If TPB is bad for not actively vetting who uses their service and for what purpose, Gun manufacturers should be held to the same standard - particularly as it would be very viable.
Glass bottle manufacturers sell the bottles to companies who fill the glass bottles with a product. Consumers buy the glass bottles with the product to use the product. Once again, they aren't allowing a crime to take place.
They are by not making plastic bottles instead - plastic bottles don't shatter and don't become a potentially lethal weapon. Again, TPB can be used for evil purposes - so can glass bottles. If it is TPB's responsibility to self-regulate so should it be the responsibility of the beverage-container industry.
Google. Google has bots put out for content searching. That's what they do. They don't know that the content is copyrighted, they scan for things to put in the search engine that are readily accessible via the internet. Google complies with takedown notices unlike The Pirate Bay who have a history of knowingly allowing users to download copyrighted material.
Maybe because TPB and Google operate in separate jurisdictions?
That's the difference. Google does not knowingly allow access to proven copyrighted material, whereas TPB does. And that's why TPB got in to trouble. TPB knowingly provided the vehicle for which people can commit crimes, and did nothing to prevent it from happening
Just like all the companies I outlined above. Are they the same? No. But does the "they should know what the products/services they provide actually facilitate" defence work equally well? Yes.
Furthermore, I go back to what I said about intent. Google does not have the intent of allowing access to copyrighted material. TPB does. Google removes the copyrighted material once asked. TPB laughs. Google cooperates. TPB puts up the letters and the ridiculous responses on their website for others to see. Google does the best it can to make sure the law is followed. TPB ignores the law.
Yes, but Google and TPB operate in completely different jurisdictions. The liquor store I frequent happily sells me Vodka, even though I am not 21. However there are bottle stores in Wyoming that only sell alcohol to 21+ year olds as that is what state law says. Should my bottle store and the one in Wyoming be held to the same standard? As it stands, New Zealand law blatantly violates the state constitutions of several US states, including Virginia, Michigan, Texas, South Dakota among others. Consequentially, the DIA (Department of Internal Affairs, responsible for issuing Marriage, Birth, Death and Civil Union certificates) within New Zealand is offering unconstitutional documents compared to, say, a Texas county clerk's office. Should the DIA and said county clerk be held to the same standards?

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by SamG » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:20 pm

Anon wrote:Yes, but Google and TPB operate in completely different jurisdictions.
I think I follow this, but does copyright or property law operate in different jurisdictions in the same way?

And I'm getting confused by the seemingly apples-to-oranges comparisons here. I'm not sure why manufacturers of goods or services or the flagrant misdeeds of governments (as if one had a clear monopoly on that even in my chronologically insignificant lifetime) are in the discussion.

All this talk of liberty is equally adrift, in my mind. Lots of potentially fuzzy ideas or potentially fuzzy definitions or implementations of well established ideas don't help with clarity of argument, but the fuzz could be in my head.

Vendors and channels are at the heart of the issue, as far as I can tell, and what is and is not appropriate behavior for vendors and channels. A seemingly more appropriate comparison would be to talk about a gun dealer that doesn't vet customers. But even then it's not apples to apples. Maybe better would be the hypothetical software store that channels both legal and pirated copies of non-malicious software, or the music store that channels both legal and pirated copies of music. At least then we could get back (again) to the discussion of whether or not "pirated" is even the appropriate term.

Since we've not so far settled that one to everyone's satisfaction, it's not clear to me how we'll manage better in this case. Some people plainly think pirating of so-called intellectual property is OK. Some clearly don't. Where's the common ground for intelligent discussion of even the legal issues involved?
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Dog Cow » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:06 pm

lurttinen wrote: Just like music. You don't buy the song and own it. You just pay for the privilege to have your copy of it.
Music is tricky, because the recording has a copyright, and the music itself-- the lyrics, rhythm and notes-- have a copyright as well. For example, I believe Michael Jackson owns a good portion of the Beatles' catalog, but he does not own the recordings.
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