Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

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Linda Carter
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Linda Carter » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:07 pm

And once again, "Paulo Brabo" is right... 8-)
[...]

Today it is common knowledge that we are purchasing CDs that cannot be copied, songs that require a special clearance and can only be heard on your computer, movies that can only be seen two or three times, digital books that cannot be printed. All these measures can create the impression that the copyright cartel is worried about protecting their content against our piracy.

The plan is actually more ambitious. They want to protect themselves against our content.

[...]
http://www.google.com/translate?u=http% ... pair=pt|en

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:01 pm

this:
http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... 5#p9323185
is probably the best and most accurate comment on this yet.

here are a couple more:

1. you can debate whether a law is a good one or not, but until/unless it is changed, it is still the law.
If you break that law, then you have to pay the price. ( if you get caught ).

2. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.
( there seems to be a real lacking of that these days.


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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by wGEric » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:44 pm

The key is that they knowingly aided people in committing a crime. Google doesn't knowingly help people break the law.
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Anon » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:52 am

SamG wrote:
Anon wrote:Yes, but Google and TPB operate in completely different jurisdictions.
I think I follow this, but does copyright or property law operate in different jurisdictions in the same way?
What do you mean? There are international copyright treaties, but they only apply to the extent as to how member states formulate their own copyright laws. While you will have at least the bare minimum of protection as set out in the treaties in each state, those protections are very minimal. It is up to the member states to implement them individually. So while it is true that microsoft has as much protection in Sweden as it does in the United States WRT copyrighted code, it is up to the Swedes as to what protections they extend beyond those in the copyright treaties.
Vendors and channels are at the heart of the issue, as far as I can tell, and what is and is not appropriate behavior for vendors and channels. A seemingly more appropriate comparison would be to talk about a gun dealer that doesn't vet customers. But even then it's not apples to apples. Maybe better would be the hypothetical software store that channels both legal and pirated copies of non-malicious software, or the music store that channels both legal and pirated copies of music. At least then we could get back (again) to the discussion of whether or not "pirated" is even the appropriate term.
To be honest the gun dealer is a better match. In running a software shop, you have to actively vet everything that you sell. There simply is no other way to sell software. Therefore if you sell pirated software, you had to actively put it up for sale.

This is different to the gun dealer and TPB. In both of these scenarios, the provider only provides a raw tool, that in and of itself is not illegal. While some individual users may use these tools to commit illegal acts, given that the providers have not actively vetted their users (in the way the software shop has vetted the software they sell), they cannot be held accountable for what users do with the tools they provide.
Since we've not so far settled that one to everyone's satisfaction, it's not clear to me how we'll manage better in this case. Some people plainly think pirating of so-called intellectual property is OK. Some clearly don't. Where's the common ground for intelligent discussion of even the legal issues involved?
The thing is that the argument is more about accountability than copyright infringement itself. Is there at least one copyright infringing file being shared on TPB? Yes. Did the admins of TPB actively allow it through? No, as their tracker is open and thus anyone can use it for whatever purpose. So their service is being used for bad things, but they don't know about it. If they are to be held responsible, then so should ISPs for not actively vetting their customers usage, Google for not actively vetting their database, and gun dealers for not actively vetting how their customers use guns.

Is google a separate case? Yes, but that is no a fair defence as they operate under separate jurisdictions. Google complies with DMCA because it is in the united states. TPB does not comply with DMCA because they are not in the US, and hence DMCA is not applicable to them. They cannot be held to the same standard as there is nothing compelling TPB to do so. However what they do is the same in that they both point users towards content that they are looking for.
The key is that they knowingly aided people in committing a crime. Google doesn't knowingly help people break the law.
How does Google not knowingly point users towards copyrighted material, yet TPB does so?

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by SamG » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:26 am

Anon wrote:What do you mean? There are international copyright treaties, but they only apply to the extent as to how member states formulate their own copyright laws.
I mean that pointing out the jurisdictional differences between Google and TPB, and illustrating that difference with the variety in something like drinking age laws, seems to neglect the places where there are relevant jurisdictional similarities. Copyright and property law are included in international treaties and so have at least some international uniformity. In other words, while I follow the point about jurisdictional differences, I think the differences most likely mitigated in the case of copyright and property law.
Anon wrote:To be honest the gun dealer is a better match.
Well, my point was that IMHO, any and all of my proposed comparisons, whatever their shortcomings individually and relative to one another, serve the argument better than bringing up Gitmo and glass bottles.
Anon wrote:The thing is that the argument is more about accountability than copyright infringement itself.
Agreed. But in discussions here on this topic even accountability provides little to no common ground. Consider the range of views in this topic alone. We have everything from "They want to protect themselves against our content" to "And if I were in the same position-- selling some product to make a profit-- I'd have the exact same attitude." Until the intellectual property piracy issue as an issue serves up some common ground, I see no way to draw any defensible position on TPB, one way or another.

Ignorance of illegal activity in one's own house isn't an absolute defense either, so I see no reason to dwell on that argument as if it where the final word on accountability in this case. Accountability means considering damages, and without a consensus on damages, if any, and where they actually occur (TPB versus an ISP versus acknowledged legal distribution channels), I don't see how we avoid being back at square one.
We should talk less, and say more.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:12 pm

Anon wrote:
Vendors and channels are at the heart of the issue, as far as I can tell, and what is and is not appropriate behavior for vendors and channels. A seemingly more appropriate comparison would be to talk about a gun dealer that doesn't vet customers. But even then it's not apples to apples. Maybe better would be the hypothetical software store that channels both legal and pirated copies of non-malicious software, or the music store that channels both legal and pirated copies of music. At least then we could get back (again) to the discussion of whether or not "pirated" is even the appropriate term.
To be honest the gun dealer is a better match. In running a software shop, you have to actively vet everything that you sell. There simply is no other way to sell software. Therefore if you sell pirated software, you had to actively put it up for sale.
The gun dealer is responsible for determining whether or not the person they are selling to is allowed to purchase that firearm. The gun manufacturers, however, as in your previous example, have no say in that, therefore they are not responsible.
The thing is that the argument is more about accountability than copyright infringement itself. Is there at least one copyright infringing file being shared on TPB? Yes. Did the admins of TPB actively allow it through? No, as their tracker is open and thus anyone can use it for whatever purpose. So their service is being used for bad things, but they don't know about it. If they are to be held responsible, then so should ISPs for not actively vetting their customers usage, Google for not actively vetting their database, and gun dealers for not actively vetting how their customers use guns.
How can TPB not know? The regularly receive letters about copyrighted material. They choose to not be responsible. Google, on the other hand, does.
Is google a separate case? Yes, but that is no a fair defence as they operate under separate jurisdictions. Google complies with DMCA because it is in the united states. TPB does not comply with DMCA because they are not in the US, and hence DMCA is not applicable to them. They cannot be held to the same standard as there is nothing compelling TPB to do so. However what they do is the same in that they both point users towards content that they are looking for.
It seems to me that there is something compelling TPB to do so, as they were charged with exactly what I said they would be. So there is a law that says copyrights have to be respected, because they were charged with aiding a felony. What felony? Allowing someone to break copyrights. They had knowledge of it, because as I mentioned before, they received letters alerting them to that fact.
The key is that they knowingly aided people in committing a crime. Google doesn't knowingly help people break the law.
How does Google not knowingly point users towards copyrighted material, yet TPB does so?
Because Google a) doesn't allow users to submit copyrighted material and b) Google removes copyrighted material once they are alerted to that fact as opposed to TPB ignoring and/or laughing at the request.
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’Pirate Bay Trial Should Be Re-run’

Post by lurttinen » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:03 am

http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/ ... el=2786591
The judge in the pirate bay was unsuitable and should have been replaced. That’s the opinion of several experts.

An investigation by Swedish public radio shows that the judge in the Pirate Bay trial has been a member of several pro-copyright associations, rendering him unfit to preside over the trial, which hinged on accusations of copyright infringement.
This is really interesting twist.
Norström should not have taken this case as it it clear that he cannot be unbiased.
Working for the copyright associations, that is...
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Re: ’Pirate Bay Trial Should Be Re-run’

Post by ToonArmy » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:44 am

lurttinen wrote:This is really interesting twist.
Norström should not have taken this case as it it clear that he cannot be unbiased.
Working for the copyright associations, that is...
Yeah, that is a conflict of interests.
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by tvangstr0ye » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:16 pm

I listened most of the trial, missing only a few days. I felt there was a continuous lack of knowledge about the technicalities and there was no real effort to enlighten the whole court about simple technological facts. All the information came through witness explanations, which sometimes proved to be dodgy at best. All in all this resulted in a very messy unclear trial.

In my eyes it is pretty clear that this was a test run for the prosecutors, both sides knowing the result would be appealed. Il was hurried along, full of holes and sidetracks.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Dog Cow » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:27 pm

Having a knowledge of the technology is important, IMO, but that doesn't change the fact that TPB was using it illegally.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by tvangstr0ye » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:48 pm

Luckily, that is not for you or me to decide =)

When and how the Swedish supreme court will rule is still an open question, the answer will either help format the way media is handled, or it will bring a cascade of lawsuits and force yet another round in the p2p dance, summed up as something like "Oh shit, what is this new p2p network that is impossible to track and do anything about?".

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:13 pm

Sure, the judge wasn't impartial, and I'm sure the defense is going to be all over that, but that doesn't change the fact that what TPB was/is doing is wrong. TPB at one point admitted that they knew what they were doing was wrong.
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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by tvangstr0ye » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:57 pm

At most, if your on that side of the story, you can say they are morally wrong because they have customized their site with categories and search functions to better facilitate the most popular user generated content.
If the millions of people who use TPB wanted to share pictures and not copyrighted material, the categories would be different. You can't blame 4 swedes because of what millions of people do.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by SamG » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:47 pm

Of course. But I don't have to be the thief to fence stolen property. The fence faces charges for her crime, not the crime of the thief.

I'm not suggesting that four Swedes are in this case fences. I'm just saying that they've been convicted of aiding, a separate crime.
We should talk less, and say more.

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Re: Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Dog Cow » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:33 am

tvangstr0ye wrote: You can't blame 4 swedes because of what millions of people do.
In this case, you can. As owners of the site, they could have prevented their users from illegally distributing copyrighted content on the site. Instead, they encouraged it.

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