Your opinions on TPB trial (The pirate Bay)

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lurttinen
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by lurttinen »

Techie-Micheal wrote:
lurttinen wrote:The question is. According to swedish and EU laws. Are service providers liable for what their users (customers) do?
Yes, they are aware there is illegal stuff floating around and they have put up a page ridiculing take down notices.
Is that illegal? Can they do it?
What does the swedish and EU legislations have to say about it?
That's the question, does the EU/Swedish legislation have anything on accessories? That's my whole point here, they are in full knowledge of the illegal activities that their users are doing, but because they have refused to be responsible, they would be subject to whatever accessory legislation that might be in place.
I'm sure they have such laws.
What i think might be under debate is how far back in the chain that law goes? Click and you got the torrent is just one step away from the piraware.
Like the analogies before this post. Is a gun manufacturer responsible for murders committed using their weapons? I could kill someone using a table knife. Car manufacturer for crashes? A dent in a sidewalk and you could sue town for injuring yourself? Bit torrent creator for creating a protocol making this possible? Microsoft for making an operating system that can be used for crimes?
These have nothing to do with piracy, but how far back can they look for people responsible?

In Norway IFPI is taking Telenor to court for not blocking their customers from TPB. Telenor of course says they have no legal obligation to do so. (I believe Telenor is right)
IFPI base their case on a ruling in Denmark and are saying Norwegian laws are equivalent.

Basically it would mean a postal office says they do not deliver a letter based on the addres.
I have seen Taxi's do that where they have different fees for different areas, or range or something like that.

EDIT: In all, this will be a precedence if there is no clear law about what is legal and what is not.
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Techie-Micheal
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

lurttinen wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:
lurttinen wrote:The question is. According to swedish and EU laws. Are service providers liable for what their users (customers) do?
Yes, they are aware there is illegal stuff floating around and they have put up a page ridiculing take down notices.
Is that illegal? Can they do it?
What does the swedish and EU legislations have to say about it?
That's the question, does the EU/Swedish legislation have anything on accessories? That's my whole point here, they are in full knowledge of the illegal activities that their users are doing, but because they have refused to be responsible, they would be subject to whatever accessory legislation that might be in place.
I'm sure they have such laws.
What i think might be under debate is how far back in the chain that law goes? Click and you got the torrent is just one step away from the piraware.
Like the analogies before this post. Is a gun manufacturer responsible for murders committed using their weapons? I could kill someone using a table knife. Car manufacturer for crashes? A dent in a sidewalk and you could sue town for injuring yourself? Bit torrent creator for creating a protocol making this possible? Microsoft for making an operating system that can be used for crimes?
These have nothing to do with piracy, but how far back can they look for people responsible?

In Norway IFPI is taking Telenor to court for not blocking their customers from TPB. Telenor of course says they have no legal obligation to do so. (I believe Telenor is right)
IFPI base their case on a ruling in Denmark and are saying Norwegian laws are equivalent.

Basically it would mean a postal office says they do not deliver a letter based on the addres.
I have seen Taxi's do that where they have different fees for different areas, or range or something like that.

EDIT: In all, this will be a precedence if there is no clear law about what is legal and what is not.
Someone tried this earlier and I thought I made it clear how it falls apart once you go past the ones that are responsible. ;) As we've already established, the P2P in and of itself is perfectly fine. Torrents in of themselves are perfectly fine. A car in and of itself is fine. A table/butter knife in and of itself is fine. It is what people do (or don't, as the case may be) with them that's the problem. Trying to push the blame to innocent parties is silly. Why on earth would you blame a nail gun manufacturer for someone getting hurt when that person intentionally disabled the safety protocols? Why on earth would you blame an air conditioning manufacturer when someone gets hurt because they loaded it on the forklift improperly? Trying to take the blame off of TPB by trying to push it past them is not doing anybody any good. As I and others have already said, their hosting provider would be as far as that could go, but TPB took the torrent protocols and allowed others to use them for illegal activities, and didn't bother to do anything about it. The HVAC manufacturer didn't make TPB do it, TPB made that choice, and that shows their intent.
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lurttinen
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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Yes, like i said above. Sorry for not explaining this better.
lurttinen wrote:Click and you got the torrent is just one step away from the piraware.
They are accessory to a crime. Without them a John Doe would not have been able to commit a crime.

It is no different than the CD chain i encountered back in the 90's.
Someone passed a list which was circulating around and eventually coming back to the author with a order of programs the pirate would then burn to the CD. Again that CD would circulate back to the person who ordered it.
That was weird actually. I gave money to my friend who passed it to his friend who passed it again to his friend, etc... untill it reached the pirate.
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Techie-Micheal
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

lurttinen wrote:Yes, like i said above. Sorry for not explaining this better.
lurttinen wrote:Click and you got the torrent is just one step away from the piraware.
They are accessory to a crime. Without them a John Doe would not have been able to commit a crime.
Okay, I understand now. :)
It is no different than the CD chain i encountered back in the 90's.
Someone passed a list which was circulating around and eventually coming back to the author with a order of programs the pirate would then burn to the CD. Again that CD would circulate back to the person who ordered it.
That was weird actually. I gave money to my friend who passed it to his friend who passed it again to his friend, etc... untill it reached the pirate.
o_O That's just weird. :P Edit: I take that back, that sounds a whole lot like money laundering.
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Re: Your opions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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Techie-Micheal wrote:But they have offered a place for the illicit activity to occur. I don't know what Swedish law says, so I'm only going on what US law(s) is/are, but assisting the illicit activity places you in as much hot water as the person who actually committed the crime. This is why those who assist in crimes are accessories, because they allowed the activity to happen.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary agrees with me:
Merriam-Webster wrote: a person not actually or constructively present but contributing as an assistant or instigator to the commission of an offense —called also accessory before the fact b: a person who knowing that a crime has been committed aids or shelters the offender with intent to defeat justice —called also accessory after the fact
From what I can see, this is exactly what TPB is doing; they are protecting those who wish to commit the actual offenses.
That's like saying a parking lot encourages auto theft. Same thing with guns. Gun companies say don't shoot people and Pirate Bay says don't download illegal stuff. But they are not your mom so they don't have to "make" you not do it. If it has no legit purpose I'd agree, but it has a very legit purpose.
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Re: Your opions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

seaweed wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:But they have offered a place for the illicit activity to occur. I don't know what Swedish law says, so I'm only going on what US law(s) is/are, but assisting the illicit activity places you in as much hot water as the person who actually committed the crime. This is why those who assist in crimes are accessories, because they allowed the activity to happen.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary agrees with me:
Merriam-Webster wrote: a person not actually or constructively present but contributing as an assistant or instigator to the commission of an offense —called also accessory before the fact b: a person who knowing that a crime has been committed aids or shelters the offender with intent to defeat justice —called also accessory after the fact
From what I can see, this is exactly what TPB is doing; they are protecting those who wish to commit the actual offenses.
That's like saying a parking lot encourages auto theft. Same thing with guns. Gun companies say don't shoot people and Pirate Bay says don't download illegal stuff. But they are not your mom so they don't have to "make" you not do it. If it has no legit purpose I'd agree, but it has a very legit purpose.
Actually, no, it is nothing like that at all.

Here, let me requote the definition I quoted.
Merriam-Webster wrote: a person not actually or constructively present but contributing as an assistant or instigator to the commission of an offense —called also accessory before the fact b: a person who knowing that a crime has been committed aids or shelters the offender with intent to defeat justice —called also accessory after the fact
Now, let me requote what you said:
Pirate Bay says don't download illegal stuff
Do they now? Because their actions say something completely different. As I and others have already explained, TPB pokes fun at those who ask for copyrighted material to be removed. TPB is actively sheltering offenders. Let me requote that specific definition:
knowing that a crime has been committed aids or shelters the offender with intent to defeat justice
Now, how do parking lots or gun companies come in to this definition? They don't.
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Re: Your opions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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Techie-Micheal wrote:Now, how do parking lots or gun companies come in to this definition? They don't.
Taken from a different perspective, a gun company knowingly selling a gun to a convicted felon, which implies they would be using it for illegal purposes, would make them an accessory.

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Techie-Micheal
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Re: Your opions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

AdamR wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:Now, how do parking lots or gun companies come in to this definition? They don't.
Taken from a different perspective, a gun company knowingly selling a gun to a convicted felon, which implies they would be using it for illegal purposes, would make them an accessory.

- Adam
Except that the gun company doesn't know or control to whom the gun is sold.
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Re: Your opions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by RMcGirr83 »

Techie-Micheal wrote:
AdamR wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:Now, how do parking lots or gun companies come in to this definition? They don't.
Taken from a different perspective, a gun company knowingly selling a gun to a convicted felon, which implies they would be using it for illegal purposes, would make them an accessory.

- Adam
Except that the gun company doesn't know or control to whom the gun is sold.
Only to the extent that the gun company can limit distributorship rights to whatever middle man they want....but I, personally, don't think they give a rats arse.
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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Problem with the gun thing: guns have a legal and illegal purpose. Illegal torrents on the Pirate Bay only have one purpose, and that purpose is illegal distribution of software.
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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Dog Cow wrote:Problem with the gun thing: guns have a legal and illegal purpose. Illegal torrents on the Pirate Bay only have one purpose, and that purpose is illegal distribution of software.
A torrent can be legal, P2P is used by a lot of people for legal purposes. Granted its small percentage compared to the illegal uses.
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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thecoalman wrote:
Dog Cow wrote:Problem with the gun thing: guns have a legal and illegal purpose. Illegal torrents on the Pirate Bay only have one purpose, and that purpose is illegal distribution of software.
A torrent can be legal
We've already discussed this, hence why I used the term "Illegal torrents" on Pirate Bay.
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

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By the same reasoning, if you owned a property where someone was shot, you should also be tried for murder.
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by A_O_C »

On what grounds (no pun intended)? Did you knowingly allow the murderer to kill the person on your property? ;)
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Re: Your opinions on the TBH trial (The pirate Bay)

Post by EXreaction »

You didn't sit watch 24/7 on the border and search everyone who went through.
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