Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Discussion of non-phpBB related topics with other phpBB.com users.
Forum rules
General Discussion is a bonus forum for discussion of non-phpBB related topics with other phpBB.com users. All site rules apply.
Post Reply
mossrisjhons
Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:04 pm

Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by mossrisjhons » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:17 pm

Hello all. I would like some feedback on this.

I have seen so many comparisons about a Mac Book Pro and non-Apple laptops.

It would seem to me that IF you did configure a Windows based laptop with everything a Mac Book Pro has the Windows based laptop is a little less expensive.

My view on this is that with a non-Apple laptop you have greater choice. You don't need to buy a Cadillac when all you need is a Chevrolet.

Yes I can spend $3000 on a non-Apple laptop if I need that level of ability or I can spend $700 for a more basic machine. I have the choice.

Also the myth that Apple users are some how smarter than Windows users. I think the average Apple user is just as dumb as the average PC user.

Kim_Possible
Registered User
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:57 pm

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Kim_Possible » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:15 am

My decision is purely economical:

-I need laptops for my business.
-I can use Linux for almost everything I do.
-I also need to run a few Windows applications in my work (no choice there).

So there isn't much choice for me. I buy refurbished Dell laptops. They do what I need them to do, and do it just fine. And so far, I haven't paid more than $450 for one.

User avatar
Sam
Former Team Member
Posts: 2082
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:59 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Name: Sam Thompson
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Sam » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:39 am

PC Laptops are significantly cheaper and more powerful. Being susceptible to some viruses is such a small trade off considering what you get. Laptop I got for school cost about $1700 a year ago, it has 4 gigs of ram, 2.5 ghz core 2 dou, Nvidia GeForce 8600, I can play games on it, it allows me code, and I can run my linux boxes any network known to man, and some known only to monkeys (I invested in the good network adapter).

Don't get me wrong, however, I have used some nice Macs, and I like them, they make excellent machines for video work, video processing, and other multimedia creation. I have been working with Macs just about the same amount of time I have been working with windows systems (Linux comes in late in the game, as I have only been working with it for the last two years). I just can't see myself buying a Mac book or something of that nature, they really tend to emphasize sex appeal more then computing power.

Now, allow me to do some minor trolling:
Some people like macs because they have "toys" on there. You know what I am talking about, 99% of all programs beginning with an "i" is a toy on a Mac. Its like Baby's First Computer. ^_^
[/troll]
mossrisjhons wrote:Also the myth that Apple users are some how smarter than Windows users. I think the average Apple user is just as dumb as the average PC user.
I couldn't agree more. :)

User avatar
narqelion
I've Been Banned!
Posts: 7235
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by narqelion » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:50 am

mossrisjhons wrote:Hello all. I would like some feedback on this.
What feedback in particular are you looking for, which laptop platform people prefer?
# Survey-topics
This forum is for discussion, not for your personal surveys and polls. "Do you have a cat?!?!!!"!, "What's your favourite html editor???" and similar topics are not allowed, unless your own contribution contains at least some reasoning.

User avatar
ckwalsh
Former Team Member
Posts: 1837
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:50 am
Location: Seattle, USA
Name: Cullen Walsh
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by ckwalsh » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:02 am

narqelion wrote:
mossrisjhons wrote:Hello all. I would like some feedback on this.
What feedback in particular are you looking for, which laptop platform people prefer?
# Survey-topics
This forum is for discussion, not for your personal surveys and polls. "Do you have a cat?!?!!!"!, "What's your favourite html editor???" and similar topics are not allowed, unless your own contribution contains at least some reasoning.
I think we (the Moderators) can handle this. While I understand you are trying to help, most of the time such rule quoting causes more trouble than it causes. If you are concerned a topic is not appropriate, the proper course is to report it.

As for the topic itself, I would say the "contribution contains at least some reasoning." It's not just trying to get a single word answer.

But I digress. Carry on.
Where to post what | Forum Rules | The Dos and Don'ts of General Discussion
In Seattle and want to meet, chat, or have a coffee? Drop me a PM.

User avatar
AdamR
Former Team Member
Posts: 9731
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida
Name: Adam Reyher
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by AdamR » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:05 am

The advertised benefit to Macbooks vs. PC laptops is higher hardware quality. Unfortunately for Apple, this really isn't true any more. The majority of mid-range laptops are using identical hardware, in terms of brand and manufacturing process. Hynix or Kingston typically produce the memory memory who in turn contract out some of their modules to Samsung. Hitachi, Seagate, or Fujitsu hard drives. Recently, I've noticed Apple using more and more Fujitsu drives which, in my experience, has the highest failure rate of any of the brands. Occasionally you'll see a Western Digital drive in a Dell or an Apple. Phillips/Sony generally make the LCD screens.

In reality, what you are really paying a premium for with a Macbook is the license to use OS X.

All around, one's decision of which laptop they should buy comes down to which operating system they want to use.

- Adam
phpBB Support: Welcome | Userguide | Knowledge Base | Search
Honored supporter of the phpBB Group!
"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton

Desdenova
Registered User
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:25 pm

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Desdenova » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:17 pm

AdamR wrote:All around, one's decision of which laptop they should buy comes down to which operating system they want to use.
Not to mention, you can't run OS X (legally) on a computer other than a Mac. It violates the EULA, IIRC.

User avatar
Techie-Micheal
Security Consultant
Posts: 19510
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:11 am
Location: In your servers

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:43 pm

AdamR wrote:The advertised benefit to Macbooks vs. PC laptops is higher hardware quality. Unfortunately for Apple, this really isn't true any more. The majority of mid-range laptops are using identical hardware, in terms of brand and manufacturing process. Hynix or Kingston typically produce the memory memory who in turn contract out some of their modules to Samsung. Hitachi, Seagate, or Fujitsu hard drives. Recently, I've noticed Apple using more and more Fujitsu drives which, in my experience, has the highest failure rate of any of the brands. Occasionally you'll see a Western Digital drive in a Dell or an Apple. Phillips/Sony generally make the LCD screens.
You aren't the only one who has seen/heard of Fujitsu drives having the highest failure rate.
In reality, what you are really paying a premium for with a Macbook is the license to use OS X.
Personally, I think you are paying for the brand more than anything.

A bit of perspective. A 13" Macbook costs about the same as a similarly specced Dell/HP/Compaq 15-17" laptop.

A 15-17" Macbook Pro costs more than twice a similarly specced Dell/HP/Compaq 15-17" laptop. Both brand new.

I'm sorry, but less is more doesn't apply here. A 13" screen when I can get a 15-17" screen for roughly the same amount of money? Yeah, I don't think so.

And yes, I am an Apple user. I have an iPod touch and a Mac mini. But Apple needs to be slapped a bit so they realize that these prices need to be improved. As AdamR said, they are using the same, if not lesser materials as the HP/Compaq/Dell laptops.
Proven Offensive Security Expertise. OSCP - GXPN

User avatar
god0fgod
Registered User
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by god0fgod » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:48 pm

Firstly, Macs are personal computers. If you are confused look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer I'm not being pedantic because this is a seriously wrong misuse of the term and it creates confusion and frustration. I blame Apple for the misuse with their averts but it most likely appeared elsewhere first.

OSX is more powerful than Windows. SyntaxError90 who said Macs are less powerful is wrong, at least in relative terms. OSX is fast and robust. Windows isn't either. He also had the bad impression that Macs are only good for creating media and staring at. While they are good for those things, it doesn't mean they aren't brilliant for other things such as web browsing, email, writing documents, organising files and electronic devices, watching videos, viewing photos and listening to music. The iLife programs are very good. In relative terms, definitely. iMovie is far better than Windows Movie Maker. There is one toy however, the speech recognition. It's funny trying and failing to get my Mac to tell me a joke.
mossrisjhons wrote: It would seem to me that IF you did configure a Windows based laptop with everything a Mac Book Pro has the Windows based laptop is a little less expensive.
You can't install OSX, which makes a massive difference.

Macs are cheaper if you think about the life span. Divide the price by the time you can use it productively.

Mac users are usually less ignorant than Windows users. Many Windows users don't understand that they can use a better Operating System or they don't know how to use other Operating Systems because they aren't good with computers. I've gotten people who aren't very good with computers to use Ubuntu before, so the latter is a poor excuse.

User avatar
AdamR
Former Team Member
Posts: 9731
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida
Name: Adam Reyher
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by AdamR » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:44 pm

god0fgod wrote:Firstly, Macs are personal computers. If you are confused look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer I'm not being pedantic because this is a seriously wrong misuse of the term and it creates confusion and frustration. I blame Apple for the misuse with their averts but it most likely appeared elsewhere first.
The term "PC" has been identified with non-Apple, DOS/Windows machines ever since the early 80's. IBM can largely be credited with the usage of the term in the consumer, mainstream market.
OSX is more powerful than Windows. SyntaxError90 who said Macs are less powerful is wrong, at least in relative terms. OSX is fast and robust. Windows isn't either.
Define "powerful." Define "fast." ;)

He also never said Macs are less powerful. He was putting forth the fact that dollar for dollar, non-Apple hardware is more "powerful."
He also had the bad impression that Macs are only good for creating media and staring at. While they are good for those things, it doesn't mean they aren't brilliant for other things such as web browsing, email, writing documents, organising files and electronic devices, watching videos, viewing photos and listening to music. The iLife programs are very good. In relative terms, definitely. iMovie is far better than Windows Movie Maker.
iLife is not free. ;) That being said, for the price, it is a very decent media suite. Also, have you tried Windows Live Movie Maker? In terms of features, it's pretty close to what iMovie has to offer. Not as feature-filled, but close.

Also, let's go through the things you described one by one:

Web browsing: The same exact browsers with the same exact rendering engines are available on OS X and Windows.
Email: A lot of people use web based email, so this point is irrelevant for them. That being said, for those that use desktop clients, there are nearly identical applications for both OS X and Windows. Windows Live Mail -> Mail. And to be honest, Apple actually lacks here. A lot of people use Outlook. Entourage for the Mac is an utterly horrible program. Luckily the 2010 version should see some significant improvements.
Writing Documents: OpenOffice.org is available for both platforms. Microsoft Office is available for both Platforms. Apple offers iWork which gets the job done, but is not as feature-filled as the full Microsoft Office suite.
Organizing files and electronic devices: I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here, but this may come down to personal preference. At least, the files portion does. Whether you prefer the Finder or Windows Explorer all comes down to your needs. I can't tell you the last time I actually opened an Explorer window. Everything I do is done from the Start search box. As for electronic devices, from Vista forward, it has been an absolute dream in Windows. Again, a portion of this is personal preference, but the ability to work with electronic devices is easy on both platforms.
Watching Videos: Again, identical programs are on both platforms. VLC, iTunes, QuickTime. Windows has Windows Media Player which, with WMP12, has improved enough to become my primary media application.
Viewing Photos: This largely comes down to a personal preference between Finder and Explorer. For Windows Live Photo Gallery and iPhoto, there are alternatives such as Google's Picasa. I personally use Adobe Bridge.
Listening to Music: See "Watching Videos."

For more advanced multimedia creation, absolutely no one uses iLife or the Windows Live suites. Adobe is king with still media. Final Cut Pro holds the majority of non-linear professional video editors, with Avid also a key player. Adobe and Avid both have identical products on both platforms.
Macs are cheaper if you think about the life span. Divide the price by the time you can use it productively.
I've seen more MacBooks faulty right out of the box than any other brand of laptop. Apple's quality control (especially on iPods) is utterly terrible. As I indicated above, the hardware is identical so the failure rate is also nearly identical (within normal standard deviation). Also, your definition of productive may or may not be the same as someone else's. There is absolutely nothing I need or want to do that I can't do perfectly efficient on a Windows machine.
Mac users are usually less ignorant than Windows users. Many Windows users don't understand that they can use a better Operating System or they don't know how to use other Operating Systems because they aren't good with computers. I've gotten people who aren't very good with computers to use Ubuntu before, so the latter is a poor excuse.
Again, you're arguing your point with subjective terms. "Better" can be viewed as subjective, and the term needs to be clarified in this context.

- Adam
phpBB Support: Welcome | Userguide | Knowledge Base | Search
Honored supporter of the phpBB Group!
"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton

Kim_Possible
Registered User
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:57 pm

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Kim_Possible » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:50 pm

god0fgod wrote:Macs are cheaper if you think about the life span. Divide the price by the time you can use it productively.
I budget $200 a year for my laptops. I buy them for $400-$450 and keep them for ~3 years. Last January I bought a refurbished Dell Inspirion: 2GHz (dual core, T3200 mobile) with 3GB RAM, a 160GB hard drive, DVD-RW, and everything else you'd expect to find on a laptop for $450 (including shipping). I can easily see keeping this for two or three years. This is my third, and I've never had one break down or come defective out of the box.

I doubt very seriously that I could find a comparably priced/featured Apple laptop (and to be of any use to me that comparably priced Apple would have to come equipped to run a few Windows applications).

User avatar
drathbun
Former Team Member
Posts: 12204
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: TOPICS_TABLE
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by drathbun » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:56 pm

god0fgod wrote:Mac users are usually less ignorant than Windows users.
I was originally a bit irritated at this comment, because it looked like you presented it as fact without backing it up with anything. I searched a bit and found an article that suggests that on the face the statement is actually true. Mac users are smarter than the rest of us. Why?
Those who surf the Web using a Mac tend to be better educated and make more money than their PC-using counterparts, according to a report from Nielsen/NetRatings.
The study also said Mac users tend to be more Web savvy, with more than half having been online for at least five years. And the Mac faithful are 58 percent more likely than the overall online population to build their own Web page and also slightly more likely to buy goods online, according to the report.
Full story here: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-943519.html (Story was printed in 2002 but I believe the general concept is still valid, even if some of the statistics are dated.)

But let's look at some of the reasons why this statistic - like many :) - can be completely misleading.

First, Apple hardware costs more. If anyone disagrees with me, post some real price lists proving otherwise. :-P So let's look at another quote from further down in the same article:
Kelly said the greater affluence and education level of those who surf using a Mac is attributable in part to the company's comparatively pricier machines, ...
In other words, if you are smarter, you get a better job. If you get a better job, you can afford to spend more. Note that spending more != better computer, it just means that you spend more. Why would you do that? Here is the rest of the sentence I started quoting above.
...as well as to their perception as a status symbol and their greater market share among those in the publishing and design industries.
Ah. Right. You get a good job, you get some extra cash, so you splurge for the more expensive computer because it's like getting a Porsche for your garage. Depending on the Porsche you can get a Corvette that handles better, is faster, and costs half as much. So why get a Porsche instead of a Corvette? The "snob factor" is one (but certainly not the only) factor, same for Apple.
Nielsen/NetRatings said that 70.2 percent of Mac users online have a college degree, compared with 54.2 percent of all Web surfers.
Back to the well again... people that buy Apple have more cash to spend, and therefore are much more likely to be able to afford to get more expensive hardware. On average it may make Apple users smarter than other brands of computer users. There's your proof. :roll: (I am being sarcastic, in case that's not clear.)
Once upon a time, marketers could target personal computer users as a whole to reach a more-educated, higher-income base, however the demographics of those with a personal computer have become more similar to the demographics of the overall population as personal computer penetration has grown. Kelly said advertisers can still reach upscale crowds in other ways, such as targeting those who have a broadband connection.
So now what, people with broadband are smarter? No, it goes back to what they can afford. When broadband access was more limited and therefore more expensive, you had to either really want it, or you can to be able to afford it. If you had a better job, you could afford it. So yes, people with broadband were smarter than the rest of us.

Bottom line, for me anyway, is you might be able to say that Apple users are "less ignorant" than Windows users, but it's only because the population is smaller because the hardware is more expensive. The implication that people are picking Apple because they are smarter is inaccurate.
Many Windows users don't understand that they can use a better Operating System or they don't know how to use other Operating Systems because they aren't good with computers.
Many Apple users are useless because they don't have choices and therefore never learned anything beyond what they can see. Try asking most Apple users to use a command line and they're lost.

I have a good job. I can afford to get whatever computer I want. I won't pay the premium for Apple hardware when I get better stuff for less expense elsewhere. In my mind, that makes me smarter.
I blog about phpBB: phpBBDoctor blog
Still using phpbb2? So am I! Click below for details
Image

SamG
Former Team Member
Posts: 3221
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan
Name: Sam Graf

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by SamG » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 pm

AdamR wrote:...There is absolutely nothing I need or want to do that I can't do perfectly efficient on a Windows machine....
I was happily nodding along (in general agreement, not falling asleep) until right here. This is either hyperbole or denial. I'm guessing it's just hyperbole. :)
drathbun wrote:Many Apple users are useless because they don't have choices and therefore never learned anything beyond what they can see. Try asking most Apple users to use a command line and they're lost.
If I were a Sith Lord I would thoroughly enjoy stuff like this. The appeal is obvious.

Since I've supported Windows users in one capacity or another since 3.0, I feel authorized to be bold and suggest the possibility that by percentage, at least as many Windows users as Mac users don't even know what a command line/command prompt/DOS prompt is, let alone what to do with one. In fact, let a regular old Windows user wander over to the monitor when you invoke the command line and listen to the response. "Computer voodoo" and such rot. Dave, even the word "browser" is confusing to the Windows masses.

I have yet to meet a Mac convert from the ordinary Windows users' camp that didn't find the change reasonably positive. That isn't to say I think that's always the case. I'm just saying that I have yet to meet any of the inevitable counterexamples. I find the idea that these people are simply dillusional or incompetent and that's why they're now happy with their Macs to be a bit of a stretch.
We should talk less, and say more.

User avatar
Techie-Micheal
Security Consultant
Posts: 19510
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:11 am
Location: In your servers

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:27 pm

god0fgod wrote:Firstly, Macs are personal computers. If you are confused look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer I'm not being pedantic because this is a seriously wrong misuse of the term and it creates confusion and frustration. I blame Apple for the misuse with their averts but it most likely appeared elsewhere first.

OSX is more powerful than Windows. SyntaxError90 who said Macs are less powerful is wrong, at least in relative terms. OSX is fast and robust. Windows isn't either. He also had the bad impression that Macs are only good for creating media and staring at. While they are good for those things, it doesn't mean they aren't brilliant for other things such as web browsing, email, writing documents, organising files and electronic devices, watching videos, viewing photos and listening to music. The iLife programs are very good. In relative terms, definitely. iMovie is far better than Windows Movie Maker. There is one toy however, the speech recognition. It's funny trying and failing to get my Mac to tell me a joke.
mossrisjhons wrote: It would seem to me that IF you did configure a Windows based laptop with everything a Mac Book Pro has the Windows based laptop is a little less expensive.
You can't install OSX, which makes a massive difference.

Macs are cheaper if you think about the life span. Divide the price by the time you can use it productively.

Mac users are usually less ignorant than Windows users. Many Windows users don't understand that they can use a better Operating System or they don't know how to use other Operating Systems because they aren't good with computers. I've gotten people who aren't very good with computers to use Ubuntu before, so the latter is a poor excuse.
Slightly slanted much?

While I don't like Windows, to say it is neither fast nor robust is a tad wrong.

That said, there are both advanced users on Windows and Mac and less-than-advanced users on Windows and Mac.

To give an example of this, I asked a few friends about their Mac when I was considering getting a Mac. I asked about various things, including a terminal. I got that blank stare that you get from a user regardless of the OS they are on if they don't understand the system beyond their daily tasks.
Proven Offensive Security Expertise. OSCP - GXPN

User avatar
AdamR
Former Team Member
Posts: 9731
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida
Name: Adam Reyher
Contact:

Re: Apple laptops vs. PC laptops?

Post by AdamR » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:37 pm

SamG wrote:
AdamR wrote:...There is absolutely nothing I need or want to do that I can't do perfectly efficient on a Windows machine....
I was happily nodding along (in general agreement, not falling asleep) until right here. This is either hyperbole or denial. I'm guessing it's just hyperbole. :)
I'm being quite serious, actually. My point is that one's choice of operating systems comes down to 1) personal preference and 2) unique needs. My personal preference and unique needs allow me to use Windows for everything I need to do or want to do at this point in time. Someone else's may be different and their needs require a different operating system.
SamG wrote:I find the idea that these people are simply dillusional or incompetent and that's why they're now happy with their Macs to be a bit of a stretch.
Windows has the majority of computing market share. This means that statistically, most people will start out on a Windows based machine. For those who's needs are met by Windows, they have no need to change. Those who's needs aren't being met change to another platform, so the majority of "switchers" you come across will be moving away from Windows.

As for counter examples, I personally know a few people who have started out on System 7, OS 8/9/X and have since moved to a Windows or Linux platform as their primary desktop environment once they were able to get past the slandering of Windows and realize that it was able to meet their needs better.

If there's one issue with some (keyword, I don't want to get called on this :P) Apple users, it's their assumption that since a product has been branded with the Apple logo, it's automatically the best product on the face of the planet. I have every bit of respect for those who have objectively evaluated their choices and come to a logical conclusion based on their unique needs.

- Adam
Last edited by AdamR on Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
phpBB Support: Welcome | Userguide | Knowledge Base | Search
Honored supporter of the phpBB Group!
"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests