Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

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Lumpy Burgertushie
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:33 am

I don't believe you can generalize and say that a kid of 5 or 10 or 15 can be said to be "predisposed" to violence.

but even if that was true, that is even more the reason not to accentuate or accelerate it by exposing them to the type of senseless hacking and slashing and shooting and mayhem that is in most of the games.

I do not say that the games etc. are the only reason for the violence.

I also do not say that only those that play the games do the violence nor do only violent people play the games.

However, it is true that the level of violent behaviour in young people has risen tremendously since the games became so popular 20 or so years ago.

It is not just the level of violence that has risen but the general attitude that a persons life is worth nothing.


That is doesn't matter if you live or die, etc. etc.

I came from the hippie generation, we had out own issues as does every generation. There was violence in our movies/tv but it was not the same.
Yes, we had mass murders and rapists etc. However, we did not, as a generation, act in such a violent fashion all of the time. We did not have such a lack of respect for life itself.


robert


robert

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Techie-Micheal » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:45 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:yeah, like maybe the manufacturers of the violent games, music etc.

sorry, but if people can't see the correlation between the amazingly high levels of violence in society these days and the video games and rap music lyrics and gore laden films, then they are either too young to know what they are talking about or are not being honest with themselves.


robert
Has anybody else noticed TV shows getting more and more violent lately? Even Monk, which just had its series finale, was rather gory. One scene showed a suspect getting hit by a speeding passenger train. They used to turn the camera away to give the impression that something happened. But no, this time they showed it actually happening. The most recent NCIS: LA had a scene where they showed the guy's head getting blown off by an exploding cellphone. It used to be that they didn't show things like that. My point is, I agree that things are getting worse, and it quite frankly bothers me. Like I said in the other topic, I'd rather not get desensitized to that stuff. So I'm going to stop watching stuff like that.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by EXreaction » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:28 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:However, it is true that the level of violent behaviour in young people has risen tremendously since the games became so popular 20 or so years ago.
I'd like to see you try and back that up.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Desdenova » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:28 am

EXreaction wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:However, it is true that the level of violent behaviour in young people has risen tremendously since the games became so popular 20 or so years ago.
I'd like to see you try and back that up.
And that also brings to mind this xkcd comic:

Correlation - http://xkcd.com/552/

Image

Correlation does not imply causation, in other words.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by KaneSP » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:04 am

I don't think any government, in any country, should have anything to do with what is allowed to be sold in any game other than how its rating and warnings are distributed and enforced upon manufacturing said game. Leave the responsibility of what we see in games up to what we want or can handle if we're old enough to know better, otherwise leave it up to the parents to control what their kids are playing/watching.

This is an age old argument but I think simply put, it's humans' raw nature to be violent in the most basic of form. Video games simply offer a virtual reality to experience that carnal desire we know we can never really experience. Violence, gore and even pornography in video games are just a bit of taboo that takes your mind farther than what you usually experience on a daily basis.

I personally think that anyone who would go out and commit a violent crime based off something they learned on a video game was ultimately just looking for ideas, and had been completely capable of the violence beforehand, if not planning it already.

I've played L4D2 plenty and the violence/gore are nothing compared to what I've seen in at least 200 movies over the last 30 years. I think what this boils down to is some little pencil pusher somewhere telling a senator, "this will make you look good to parents". I see no valid reason why they would choose this game, now.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the winner of this debate will always be the person(s) willing to spend the most money to fight for it, to sell it.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Darth Wong » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:53 pm

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I wonder why the games have to all be about killing/hacking/fighting/violence.

I have no idea what else they could be about, but just don't see the need for all the violence.
They don't "have" to be violent; the consumers choose violent games, because they're exciting. You can pretend that you are exempt from the various evolutionary instincts that cause us to find excitement in violence if you like, but at the end of the day you're still a glorified ape like the rest of us.

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Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I don't believe you can generalize and say that a kid of 5 or 10 or 15 can be said to be "predisposed" to violence.
My son's grade 3 teacher had two students who grew up to be murderers, and she knew they would be dangerous criminals even when they were in grade 3. Even at a young age, a predisposition to violence can be obvious.
but even if that was true, that is even more the reason not to accentuate or accelerate it by exposing them to the type of senseless hacking and slashing and shooting and mayhem that is in most of the games.
It has still not been established that there is any correlation between videogame violence and real-life violence. Most studies purporting to show this have only shown that people become jaded to videogame violence over time, much as similar attack studies on pornography have only shown that people become jaded to pornography. Linking this to real-life action is something they have failed to successfully do, despite their rather obvious intention to push that agenda.
I do not say that the games etc. are the only reason for the violence.

I also do not say that only those that play the games do the violence nor do only violent people play the games.

However, it is true that the level of violent behaviour in young people has risen tremendously since the games became so popular 20 or so years ago.
Then why is the violent crime rate lower than it was 20 years ago?
It is not just the level of violence that has risen but the general attitude that a persons life is worth nothing.
And you have established that people today share this "general attitude" ... how?
That is doesn't matter if you live or die, etc. etc.

I came from the hippie generation, we had out own issues as does every generation. There was violence in our movies/tv but it was not the same.
There was violence in the 1960s in real-life and it was very serious. The self-promotion of the hippie generation has obscured the fact that the hippies were actually a minority at the time. The majority of the hippie generation was actually conservative. Black students attempting to integrate into white schools were often met with jeering crowds and threats of violence from other students of their own age group. Young white men turned out in raging crowds to protest integration. Violence against black people in the South was particularly egregious.

It reminds me of the way 90% of Americans were in favour of the Iraq War in 2003, and yet everyone today acts as if he thought it was going to be a boondoggle all along. People tend to pretend, after the fact, that they were on the side which ended up having the stronger hand.
Yes, we had mass murders and rapists etc. However, we did not, as a generation, act in such a violent fashion all of the time. We did not have such a lack of respect for life itself.
Are you basing this on actual factual data, or on prejudice and media hype?

If you had a time machine, would you prefer to take a stroll through New York City at night in the late 1970s, or today?

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by EXreaction » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:10 pm

Darth Wong wrote:It reminds me of the way 90% of Americans were in favour of the Iraq War in 2003, and yet everyone today acts as if he thought it was going to be a boondoggle all along. People tend to pretend, after the fact, that they were on the side which ended up having the stronger hand.
The general public is easily swayed. Just look at how many people sign petitions to ban dihydrogen monoxide.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:28 pm

it does not take a "study" to see that preteens and teenagers today have a far more violent attitude than they did when I grew up. I did not say that they always act on it, just that the attitude is there.

I think I would rather walk the streets of NY back then before there were quite so many gangs that were quite so ready to just kill you for no reason or just because you are wearing the wrong color or whatever.

human beings are not murderers by nature. by nature we had/have certain violent tendencies based on survival ( in it's many forms ). by nature, human beings would be more likely to run from a fight than to shoot someone just because they looked at them wrong.

the idea of a 10 year old committing violent crimes was a very very remote possibility 40 years ago. nowdays, you hear about things like that at least once a month.

I can't see how anyone can live in the world today and not see the change in attitude of the young towards what is acceptable behaviour and what is not.

I don't blame it all on video games or movies, there are many reasons/causes for this.
however, it has been proven that if you immerse yourself in anything, it will become part of your life, part of how you act and react etc. good or bad.

robert

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by RMcGirr83 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:39 pm

the idea of a 10 year old committing violent crimes was a very very remote possibility 40 years ago. nowdays, you hear about things like that at least once a month.
Then blame the parents for lack of proper parenting, which (I have no statistic so don't ask) I would wager has changed dramatically as well.

In my pre-teens my father wouldn't think twice of whacking me with the belt, now a kid will sue his parent for doing so. And no I have never once smacked/belted either of my kids, they like their xbox and computer to much to piss me off. ;)

I think society as a whole is to blame...not just the game makers.

PS Robert, please accept my apologies for my prior statement concerning "stereotyping".

PPS OFFTOPIC That reminds me, when was the last time you heard a kid/child say "I'm sorry, I was wrong!"?

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Desdenova » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:59 pm

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:it does not take a "study" to see that preteens and teenagers today have a far more violent attitude than they did when I grew up.
Yes it does -- otherwise you are making assumptions, and trying to debate something using an assumption is an easy way to get smothered. If you can't prove it, your theory is only a theory and it should be discarded entirely.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I think I would rather walk the streets of NY back then before there were quite so many gangs that were quite so ready to just kill you for no reason or just because you are wearing the wrong color or whatever.
For some reason, I seem to recall the drug rings being in NYC during that era. Not sure if it was that decade or not, does anyone else know?
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:human beings are not murderers by nature.
That's quite naïve. We are, in fact, murderers by nature -- our ancestors hunted for prey for a source of food in addition to gathering.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:the idea of a 10 year old committing violent crimes was a very very remote possibility 40 years ago. nowdays, you hear about things like that at least once a month.
This is the information age. Information (and by extension, news) spreads faster and farther than it ever has in the past. Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I don't blame it all on video games or movies, there are many reasons/causes for this.
however, it has been proven that if you immerse yourself in anything, it will become part of your life, part of how you act and react etc. good or bad.

robert
What about the declining role of parents? Why aren't they to blame for teaching their children what is right and wrong? Contrary to what some believe, morals are not inherited, they are passed down from generation to generation.

To put it bluntly: if you take the truest sense of the word "civilized", we are not civilized, but rather far from it. Sure, humanity as a whole has made progress, but it still is imperfect (and always will be).

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Tom » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:44 pm

Going back somewhat to what Adam had said earlier: Only some people abuse alcohol and become alcoholics, but the average person is able to take a few drinks occasionally without it causing them any harm. So, just because there are people out there that abuse alcohol, become drunk, and go out and abuse their spouses because of this, does that mean that we should ban alcohol just because there are some people that can't handle the responsibility? The same thing goes with video games. The majority of video game players can play a game without any inclination toward actually carrying out such actions as are portrayed in the game. However, just because a select few may be inclined toward violence because of playing violent video games, that doesn't mean that we should start censoring and banning video games because of it. Let people make their own decisions, and let parents do their job. If they can't do their job, then child services is always there to put the child in a more suitable home.

We have to think of this as a 21st-century situation. Whether you like it or not, the world is different now than it was before, and so issues such as these must be approached from a different perspective.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by RMcGirr83 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:58 pm

So, just because there are people out there that abuse alcohol, become drunk, and go out and abuse their spouses because of this, does that mean that we should ban alcohol just because there are some people that can't handle the responsibility?
The gov't tried that (prohibition) and it failed miserably.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Tom » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:22 pm

RMcGirr83 wrote:
So, just because there are people out there that abuse alcohol, become drunk, and go out and abuse their spouses because of this, does that mean that we should ban alcohol just because there are some people that can't handle the responsibility?
The gov't tried that (prohibition) and it failed miserably.
I was going to mention the failure of the Prohibition movement in my original post, but I took it out before I finally posted it. Glad to see someone else added that detail though, as it shows how such bans do nothing but cause chaos. ;)
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by EXreaction » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:38 pm

Banning drugs does not work, it just makes a highly profitable black market for those willing to risk selling it (just look at other drug markets in the US now). High profits mean they also need to protect themselves, which means more weapons, and more weapons distributed to more unstable people means more violent crimes.

Also, the amount of people who get beaten to death from alcohol abusers is quite low, especially in comparison to the number of people who are killed on the roads from drunks (40% of all automobile related deaths are caused by alcohol).

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

Post by Darth Wong » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:13 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:it does not take a "study" to see that preteens and teenagers today have a far more violent attitude than they did when I grew up. I did not say that they always act on it, just that the attitude is there.
And you would be COMPLETELY wrong. Unlike you, I will cite actual hard information instead of media hype, prejudice, and stereotypes:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
Violent crimes in NYC in 1988: 196,396
Violent crimes in NYC in 2008: 77,585

In fact, New York City's violent crime rate is as low now as it's been in decades, and it's much lower than it was 20 years ago.

But hey, it "does not take a study" to agree with you, right? I'll have to confirm that: it does not take a study to agree with you. It takes a study to show that you're completely wrong.
I think I would rather walk the streets of NY back then before there were quite so many gangs that were quite so ready to just kill you for no reason or just because you are wearing the wrong color or whatever.
This is precisely what I'm talking about: your arguments are based on emotion, subjective impression, and media hysteria. Worse yet, despite the fact that I was obviously challenging you to back up your assumptions, you obviously couldn't be bothered to Google your assumptions before boldly repeating them.
human beings are not murderers by nature. by nature we had/have certain violent tendencies based on survival ( in it's many forms ). by nature, human beings would be more likely to run from a fight than to shoot someone just because they looked at them wrong.
The entire recorded history of human civilization seems to disagree with you.
the idea of a 10 year old committing violent crimes was a very very remote possibility 40 years ago. nowdays, you hear about things like that at least once a month.
I assume you have statistics to back up this claim?
I can't see how anyone can live in the world today and not see the change in attitude of the young towards what is acceptable behaviour and what is not.
In other words, "anyone who disagrees with me must be insane, even though I can't come up with a smidgen of hard evidence!"
I don't blame it all on video games or movies, there are many reasons/causes for this.
however, it has been proven that if you immerse yourself in anything, it will become part of your life, part of how you act and react etc. good or bad.

robert
And apparently, you've immersed yourself in media hysteria about crime rates.

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