Left 4 Dead 2's Gore Censorship

RMcGirr83 · Post by **RMcGirr83** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:16 am

I think NY smells like urine which is why I never go there.

Just thought I would clear that up.

KaneSP · Post by **KaneSP** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:04 am

The negative energies on this topic are more likely to make me want to slap someone than after playing 2 hours of L4D2 I think

In any case, in my opinion, I think after playing a few hours of a game like L4D2 I feel more like I have it "out of my system" for a while vs. wanting more violence after the console is switched off. Some would say a game like these mentioned can be more of a way to release anger and tension rather than build it up enough to make you homicidal.

Like I said it is, and always will be, human nature to hate, envy etc.. there is no doubt that some violence in the world could have very well come from ideas a person saw on their game or movie, but the emotional imbalance and psychological issues associated with being able to carry out something like that were there long before they played any video game.

If you want to point the finger at someone for all of this, point it at Eve. Hope that apple was tasty.

Lumpy Burgertushie · Post by **Lumpy Burgertushie** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:03 pm

I wonder about the ages of the parties on both sides of this issue. Not just here in this topic because this is topic is cussed and discussed all over.

It is usually the younger game players that defend the games/movies/music etc., and the older people that remember what it was like before the violence and violent attitude became so prevalent ( like me ) that think it is part of the problem.

robert

Desdenova · Post by **Desdenova** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:39 pm

I find it humorous how you seem to persist with that theory that violence is more prevalent than it has been in the past.

You may want to take a look farther back in history, like the era of the Roman empire (and all the murder, rape, etc)...obviously it was the video games driving them to kill. Yes, yes, that must be it.

Darth Wong · Post by **Darth Wong** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:47 pm

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I wonder about the ages of the parties on both sides of this issue. Not just here in this topic because this is topic is cussed and discussed all over.

It is usually the younger game players that defend the games/movies/music etc., and the older people that remember what it was like before the violence and violent attitude became so prevalent ( like me ) that think it is part of the problem.

robert

I was wondering how you would respond after I disproved your claim about violence going dramatically up in the last 20 years, especially when I helpfully provided a source and hard numbers to refute your charges.

I see you chose to simply ignore it. Nice.

Lumpy Burgertushie · Post by **Lumpy Burgertushie** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:58 pm

you are all missing the point. I am talking about the violent attitude of young people, not really the number of crimes commited.

I see it on the news every day, I see it in the attitudes of the young people around me, I see it in my own family members. I have been watching it get progressively worse over the last 20 years.

Don't any of you get out into the real world to see what is really happening?

Not if all you do is play video games.

( sorry, couldn't resist that one. )

As all of you know, poll numbers, research numbers can be twisted any way that you want to prove your point at the time.

( take the current debate about global warming, I mean climate change, or whatever the correct term is today, for example )

oh well, this is one of those discussions that ultimately goes nowhere because both sides are so set in their opinions. hey, that is what a debate/discussion is all about.
I don't wish to change anyone's opinion and you are not going to change mine so.....

I'm out.

robert

Lumpy Burgertushie · Post by **Lumpy Burgertushie** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:04 pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I wonder about the ages of the parties on both sides of this issue. Not just here in this topic because this is topic is cussed and discussed all over.

It is usually the younger game players that defend the games/movies/music etc., and the older people that remember what it was like before the violence and violent attitude became so prevalent ( like me ) that think it is part of the problem.

robert
I was wondering how you would respond after I disproved your claim about violence going dramatically up in the last 20 years, especially when I helpfully provided a source and hard numbers to refute your charges.

I see you chose to simply ignore it. Nice.

you misquote me:

However, it is true that the level of violent behaviour in young people has risen tremendously since the games became so popular 20 or so years ago.

and you have neither proven nor disproven anything.

robert

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:30 pm

I'm not defending video games just because I play them, but mainly because I do not feel that they have contributed to a more violent attitude in young people. I see more violent tendencies from young people who play aggressive sports than I do from those who engage in playing violent video games. If you feel that young people are being desensitized, just take a look at the world as it is today. All you ever hear on news networks is about fatalities in wars, drive-by shootings, and other such acts of homicide. After a while of hearing this at least one a week, it makes sense that a young person could become somewhat desensitized to murder and killing. I don't think it is good that they become that way, but it's almost a fact of life in today's world. While I can somewhat see where you're coming from when you say that there has been a growing sense of violent attitudes in young people these days, I don't think this can really be proven to be directly linked to video games, or if it is even a real issue at all.

ToonArmy · Post by **ToonArmy** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:07 pm

Firstly sorry for returning to the original topic.

iWisdom wrote:This leads to a rather interesting question: is the censorship of video games and similar too much? Is it really the government's job to protect grown adults (keep in mind that even at its rating level post gore removal it is still at a level where only those mature enough to handle such gore (16+) are capable of purchasing -- and this age is higher in other countries like the US)?

Everybody seems to be missing the point that in Australia they don't have an 18+ rating for video games which is a pretty major oversight considering 18 is the age of legal majority.

Desdenova · Post by **Desdenova** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:05 am

ToonArmy wrote:Everybody seems to be missing the point that in Australia they don't have an 18+ rating for video games which is a pretty major oversight considering 18 is the age of legal majority.

It's pretty stupifying; they just banned Left 4 Dead 2 outright, IIRC.

ToonArmy · Post by **ToonArmy** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:42 am

Desdenova wrote:
ToonArmy wrote:Everybody seems to be missing the point that in Australia they don't have an 18+ rating for video games which is a pretty major oversight considering 18 is the age of legal majority.
It's pretty stupifying; they just banned Left 4 Dead 2 outright, IIRC.

Think about it. They couldn't classify it as 16+ in its original form, but they couldn't grant it a certificate of 18+ because such a thing doesn't exist. Any game that doesn't get a certificate is unable to be sold. The system as I understand it works the same in the UK, only we have an 18 rating. Whether or not it would get an 18+ certificate if one could be issued is another matter.

AdamR · Post by **AdamR** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:25 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:you are all missing the point. I am talking about the violent attitude of young people, not really the number of crimes commited.

Let's assume for a moment that violent attitudes have increased over the last 20 years. We know, however, from statistics and raw numbers that this increase has not resulted in an increase of violent crime. Let me ask this question, then: What is the current manifestation of these attitudes if not violent crimes?

I see it on the news every day, I see it in the attitudes of the young people around me, I see it in my own family members. I have been watching it get progressively worse over the last 20 years.

Don't any of you get out into the real world to see what is really happening?

Personal experience is largely localised. On large scales, one requires a bit of research and study in order to determine the overall changes which have occurred.

Let's assume again that the attitudes of young people has changed. Just because video games have increased in popularity does not imply that they are the cause. Correlation does not imply causation. One could just as easily say that it is the result of bad parenting (and these so-called "violent" kids are the children of parents who weren't exposed to these video games, mind you

), but again, in order to reach a proper conclusion, one has look at legitimate studies. There's thousands of possibilities as to the reason, and in all likelyhood, there's also thousands of contributing factors.

oh well, this is one of those discussions that ultimately goes nowhere because both sides are so set in their opinions. hey, that is what a debate/discussion is all about.
I don't wish to change anyone's opinion and you are not going to change mine so.....

Opinions not based on facts are not true opinions, because they have nothing to stand on. If one is not prepared to back up their opinions with facts (or logic), it's better off not to state the opinion in the first place.

- Adam

Shadow of Nobody · Post by **Shadow of Nobody** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:02 pm

I feel like writing a decent amount about this as I did in the MW2 topic, but it seems everyone else has everything more or less covered.

I think Australia's just a bit overzealous about censorship, compared to most places. Has anyone else read about the planned internet censorship? Obviously there ARE ways around it, but...

Darth Wong · Post by **Darth Wong** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:43 pm

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:you are all missing the point. I am talking about the violent attitude of young people, not really the number of crimes commited.

Define "attitude". You claimed you would rather walk through New York City at night 20 years ago than today, despite the fact that the violent crime rate was twice as high back then. Are you saying you would rather be the victim of a violent crime than a violent "attitude"? What is violence, if not violent action?

I see it on the news every day, I see it in the attitudes of the young people around me, I see it in my own family members. I have been watching it get progressively worse over the last 20 years.

Since the violent crime rate has gone down, I would like to know precisely what you are seeing "on the news" that leads to these conclusions. Did you know that media reporting of violent crime has been known to go up even when the actual violent crime rate goes down? It seems to me like you've been duped. As for things getting worse, every generation in history says that. It's because they look back at their own youth with rose-coloured glasses.

Don't any of you get out into the real world to see what is really happening?

The FBI gets out in the real world, on a vastly larger scale than you do. Their numbers refute your claims.

As all of you know, poll numbers, research numbers can be twisted any way that you want to prove your point at the time.

Are you seriously claiming that these FBI crime numbers are somehow misleading, and that "the real world" is different from what these numbers would suggest?

Violent crimes in NYC in 1988: 196,396
Violent crimes in NYC in 2008: 77,585

Explain. It doesn't get any more "real" than violent crime.

oh well, this is one of those discussions that ultimately goes nowhere because both sides are so set in their opinions. hey, that is what a debate/discussion is all about.

Speak for yourself. You have a set opinion, but I have objective evidence, which beats pure opinion any day.

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