who uses a 50 character password?

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Pony99CA
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Pony99CA »

oleg-karow wrote:Before anyone moans about this post or closes the thread ......READ IT ...... and look in your consciences and be honest .
If you have to start a post like that, you already know it's off-topic. :D
oleg-karow wrote:Prisons dont work in fact they are counter productive in the extreme . A very very large percent of people who get sent to prison get sent again later in their life . A good example is someone gets sent down for a petty offence . When he is in criminal university .....Ooops !!! sorry prison ..... he learns how to steal cars , bypass burgler alarms and meets REALY big profesional criminals and makes international criminal conections . He also comes out with a grudge against society , the police , the courts and the government ......... and it costs US money .
And here's the off-topic part. Ranting against the prison system has nothing to do with the topic.
oleg-karow wrote:Again back to the war against islam ....
Oh, please. There is no war against Islam, only terrorism -- unless you're making the outlandish claim that Islam itself is terrorism. But again, that's really off-topic.
oleg-karow wrote:Are the people here who use long passwords criminals ?
Finally, back on topic. No, of dcourse,they aren't. However, people can testify against themselves all the time. Consider the following (at least in the U.S.):
  • If the police find your diary where you wrote about crimes, that can be used against you even though it's arguably testifying against yourself.
  • The police can compel you to give DNA, blood, fingerprints, etc. All of those are providing potential evidence against yourself.
  • The police can compel you to unlock your house or car with a search warrant.
So is there really much difference between those and compelling you to "unlock" your PC? I don't think so.

At first, I thought this case and sentence was ridiculous. However, now that I've thought about it, it does seem to follow precedents like the above.

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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by JimA »

Kim_Possible wrote:
JimA wrote:What this guy did was not handing over any evidence that could have potentially made a conviction in this case. That makes him guilty of obstruction of justice.
What if the "evidence that could have potentially made a conviction in the case" wasn't a password, but was a confession? Would not confessing making him guilty of obstruction of justice as well? When should we (the justice system) say, "You go to jail for not helping us convict you" and when should we say, "You can't be coerced with the threat of prison into incriminating yourself."

It's not always an easy call.
I agree there is a difference, but I think that the charge "obstruction of justice" is different. People in the US have the right to remain silent and therefore can not be charged with anything for not making a confession. However, when you are in possession of materials that might be or are vital to an investigation and you have been ordered by a court of law to hand these over, you are in the way of an investigation that just looks to the facts by looking at physical evidence.

Of course I don't know for sure as I don't live in the US, but I think that's a definition. :)
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Kim_Possible »

JimA wrote:Of course I don't know for sure as I don't live in the US, but I think that's a definition. :)
I don't think you've got it wrong, it just makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I'm not sure how, for example, hiding data on your computer via encryption is different than hiding drugs in your house.

Example: The police get a search warrant to search my house for drugs. They search but don't find anything because I've hidden the drugs really well. They are sure (based on other evidence) that the drugs are in my house. They tell me, "Show us where the drugs are." I refuse, telling them there are no drugs in my house, so they arrest me on obstruction of justice.

We suspect you of drugs so we search and . . .
-if we find the drugs, we arrest you for drugs.
-if we don't find the drugs, we arrest you for hiding them so well.

That is exactly what happened in this case. He gave them his computer. They have all of his data; they can read it right off the hard drive. They can't find incriminating evidence against him in that data (because he has hidden it really well). I'm just not sure the threat of prison should be used to force me to assist the police in convicting me, because then I'm screwed either way, in many cases even if I'm innocent.

Some other questions I have:
-I have an encrypted container on my external HD that I can't for the life of me remember the password for. :( It has old tax records in it that I will likely never need, but I'm screwed if I do. What if the police accused me of a computer crime, seized that HD, and then asked me for the password to that container. I tell them "I don't remember the password," and they arrest me for obstruction of justice for not making the contents of that container available to them. They would certainly have the power to do that. I'm sure if the guy in this case said, "I don't remember my password," they wouldn't just let him go. Would the police be justified in doing that?

-There was a man in a neighboring county to us who was arrested because the police believed he possessed illegal material on his computer. He had actually destroyed that material using file shredding software, so he was also charged with "destroying evidence." Would justice be served if such a ruling became standard procedure? A judge eventually threw the case out, because the police couldn't prove that it had actually been evidence that he destroyed, but the fact that he used disk wiping software made him immediately guilty in the eyes of the police.

Anyway, I know I'm a bleeding-heart when it comes to these things. I just see an alarming trend in police powers when it comes to our privacy and computers.
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Popp Singh »

Writen and to be read with humor . I aint shooting live rounds or at anyone in particular .

"Anyway, I know I'm a bleeding-heart when it comes to these things. I just see an alarming trend in police powers when it comes to our privacy and computers.."

No no your a sensible , careing person who unlike a lot of others doesnt wear mental blinkers closed at the front with a mirror .

--> Back to law

I am VERY suprised and sadened at some of the reactions here and in society in general . The british legal system has been virtualy dismantled and british people now have next to no legal rights . Remember ..... a person is inocent untill proved guilty ? Now its a person is guilty untill he proves himself inocent . And now a person can be put in prison just because the police get a tip and NO evidence is needed .

EVERY person on this planet has secrets , things that they would not want to talk about or other people to know about . Imagine you had been haveing sex and had made pictures . Would you want all and sundry to know about it and exactly what you had done ? When the cops raid a house they do it usualy with between 4 and 16 of them ...... and they are usualy not nice about it and usualy dont stick to the laws about how to do it or the laws about your / our rights . You / we have no independant witnesses and even if we do the judges mostly believe the feds and not the witnesses . Anyone who goes in court and makes statements against the cops very often lands in serious trouble . When they come they look at EVERYTHING and read EVERYTHING and they dont keep it for themselves . IF someone has secrets they then know , the prosecuter knows , the defence lawyer knows , the judge knows , the secreterys in their offices know and the people they tell know , That can be a lot of people . The guy was / is in that position .

He was previously of good character . That doesnt only mean that he had never been charged with anything it very probably also means that he had never even been mentioned in any investigations ever . The pigs got a tip off and the whole thing was based ONLY on that and the "law" that was introduced useing the "terrorist" excuse / free card .

Just because someone has been tipping the police of something doesnt mean that they are guilty . If we dont acept that we are one step before burning people at the stake and sick people useing false statements to pay debts / gain advantages .

As to passwords ----->.

In a lot of cases passwords and coded files are for fools . All they do is to anounce to anyone who knows that one uses them that one thinks that one has something to hide . Passwords are an invitation to try to crack them . There is only one place for secrets and that is in our heads and nowhere else .

To remember a long password one can use tricks . For instance one starts at a point in ones room or looks out of a window and begins with an object . Lets say red objects and then types the name of the first red object that one sees at the right of that point . Then one carrys on to the next red object and does the same and carrys on in that way . To salt it one can have a rule like .... every second object ..... or .....the first on the left and then the first on the right and then the second and so on . If one writes that as one word and that word is long enough it is uncrackable . If one gets raided one just rearanges the contents of the room .

A passwords length and complexity are two factors in cracking something coded but so is the amount of information one has that is coded . = in some cases if one only has one page in code its much harder to crack than if one has thousands .

This is my opinion if its crap please dont hesitate to say so ---->

In this case there is another aproach . That would be to try to find the start and end of files and separate them . Then because of their length one could take good guesses at what sort of file it is . For instance movies often have about the same length and data density . Then one tries to adjust the data so that a clear picture is seen . By that i mean for example people who have cracked private TV stations . They usualy didnt do it by cracking the code they take a square centemeter of the coded TV screen and fiddle with it untill a clear picture can be seen . Then they aply the same solution to the whole screen and get the whole picture .
Last edited by JimA on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Removed off-topic parts of post
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Pony99CA »

Kim_Possible wrote:I'm not sure how, for example, hiding data on your computer via encryption is different than hiding drugs in your house.

Example: The police get a search warrant to search my house for drugs. They search but don't find anything because I've hidden the drugs really well. They are sure (based on other evidence) that the drugs are in my house. They tell me, "Show us where the drugs are." I refuse, telling them there are no drugs in my house, so they arrest me on obstruction of justice.

We suspect you of drugs so we search and . . .
-if we find the drugs, we arrest you for drugs.
-if we don't find the drugs, we arrest you for hiding them so well.

That is exactly what happened in this case. He gave them his computer. They have all of his data; they can read it right off the hard drive. They can't find incriminating evidence against him in that data (because he has hidden it really well).
It's not the same at all. In the U.S., if you said that you didn't have any drugs and the police couldn't find any, they would have no evidence to prove that you had the drugs.

However, if you had some sort of impervious safe in your house and refused to provide the combination to unlock the safe despite receiving a search warrant for the safe, that would be obstruction. That's exactly what happened in this case.
Kim_Possible wrote:Some other questions I have:
-I have an encrypted container on my external HD that I can't for the life of me remember the password for. :( It has old tax records in it that I will likely never need, but I'm screwed if I do. What if the police accused me of a computer crime, seized that HD, and then asked me for the password to that container. I tell them "I don't remember the password," and they arrest me for obstruction of justice for not making the contents of that container available to them. They would certainly have the power to do that. I'm sure if the guy in this case said, "I don't remember my password," they wouldn't just let him go. Would the police be justified in doing that?
That's a good question. If you're really worried about it, you should delete the container. :)
Kim_Possible wrote:-There was a man in a neighboring county to us who was arrested because the police believed he possessed illegal material on his computer. He had actually destroyed that material using file shredding software, so he was also charged with "destroying evidence." Would justice be served if such a ruling became standard procedure? A judge eventually threw the case out, because the police couldn't prove that it had actually been evidence that he destroyed, but the fact that he used disk wiping software made him immediately guilty in the eyes of the police.
The judge made the correct ruling, so the system worked (eventually).

There will always be innocent people accused of crimes. The important thing is to ensure that they aren't improperly convicted (although that will also happen at times because people aren't perfect).

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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Pony99CA »

oleg-karow wrote:Just because someone has been fingered by a snitch / informer / judas doesnt mean that they are guilty . If we dont acept that we are one step before burning people at the stake and sick people useing false statements to pay debts / gain advantages.
Of course they aren't necessarily guilty. In fact, I've long thought that people who falsely accuse people of a crime and are proven to have done so knowing that person was not guilty should be sentenced for the crime they falsely accused the other of.

But would you have the police not investigate these allegations at all? One of the best ways to break organized crime syndicates is by getting lower-level people to roll over on their bosses in turn for reduced (or no) sentences. It doesn't always work well, but, in your world, the criminal leaders would never face justice.

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Last edited by JimA on Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed off-topic parts of post
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by vortexhlp »

50-characters isn't that long if you think about it.

thequickbrownfoxjumpedoverthelazydog (or whatever)

That's around 36 characters (i forgot the number as i was typing lol!) Now all you need to do is type it again and you have 66 characters.

As far as authorities go, sometimes a person can be forgetful. :lol:
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by ToonArmy »

oleg-karow wrote:The british legal system has been virtualy dismantled and british people now have next to no legal rights .
I have plenty of legal rights, or did I miss something?
oleg-karow wrote:Remember ..... a person is inocent untill proved guilty ? Now its a person is guilty untill he proves himself inocent .
You're still innocent until proven guilty. Refusing to decrypt encrypted data when ordered to under RIPA makes you guilty of a different offence and the person is charged accordingly. Obviously you can still be charged with the offences you were originally arrested for and tried, but the encrypted data won't be part of the evidence.
oleg-karow wrote:And now a person can be put in prison just because the police get a tip and NO evidence is needed .
Are you referring to people suspected of terrorism offences being detained in prison indefinitely? Laws which allowed that were repealed around 5 years ago.
oleg-karow wrote:You / we have no independant witnesses and even if we do the judges mostly believe the feds and not the witnesses .
I take it you're no longer talking about the UK.
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by 3Di »

the same neverending story.. you all are rounding in circles. IMHO.
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Tah Zonemaster »

Whaha :D That's five times my password. :shock:
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Pony99CA »

ToonArmy wrote:
oleg-karow wrote:Remember ..... a person is inocent untill proved guilty ? Now its a person is guilty untill he proves himself inocent .
You're still innocent until proven guilty.
Just for my personal knowledge, I thought the British legal system was "guilty until proven innocent". In other words, if you were arrested, you had to prove your innocence.

Was that ever the way it worked? If so, when did it change? Or I am confusing it with some other system (maybe the French)?

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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by ToonArmy »

Pony99CA wrote:
ToonArmy wrote:
oleg-karow wrote:Remember ..... a person is inocent untill proved guilty ? Now its a person is guilty untill he proves himself inocent .
You're still innocent until proven guilty.
Just for my personal knowledge, I thought the British legal system was "guilty until proven innocent". In other words, if you were arrested, you had to prove your innocence.
You aren't guilty until you are convicted, obviously you won't get arrested unless the police have reason to suspect you are guilty. If you do get arrested and can prove it's a mistake then they will probably decide to release you.
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by AdamR »

ToonArmy wrote:You aren't guilty until you are convicted, obviously you won't get arrested unless the police have reason to suspect you are guilty. If you do get arrested and can prove it's a mistake then they will probably decide to release you.
"Presumption of innocence" means that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense. The defendant doesn't have to say a thing, let alone "prove it's a mistake." They'd be stupid not to make a counter argument, though. The fact that they were arrested and the arresting officer's testimony would be admissible as evidence (provided the arrest itself wasn't illegal), but that alone is not enough for conviction in many cases.

Both British Common Law and EU law have presumption of innocence.

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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by Popp Singh »

"I've long thought that people who falsely accuse people of a crime and are proven to have done so knowing that person was not guilty should be sentenced for the crime they falsely accused the other of."

A person should be tried and punished if they give false information . But only for what they have done = giveing false information . The punishment should reflect the severity of the acusation and its consequencys . I`ve tried several times to have that done and the police wouldnt give any information . Technicaly they should give that information but in reality one would have to take them to court . That could be very expensive and also take a very long time .

"But would you have the police not investigate these allegations at all? "

All acusations should be fairly invesatigated .

"in your world, the criminal leaders would never face justice."

Its not my world that you are talking about its your missunderstanding of what i say and believe . See above .

"I have plenty of legal rights, or did I miss something?"

It seems to me that you have . It also seems to me that you didnt read the thread or didnt understand the implications of the legal aspects of this case . Useing the word plenty is also an indication of that .The international press has reported many times about the errosion of legal rights in the U.K . In this case we are talking about some of the main and basic citizens rights wich have been virtualy abolished . Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeous_corpus to get a small view of what i am talking about . Not just me either . This case and other with similar implications have been reported and talked about in the international press many times .

"Are you referring to people suspected of terrorism offences being detained in prison indefinitely?"

No i am refering to this case .

"I take it you're no longer talking about the UK."

I am specificaly talking about the UK . An example . Near where you live there was a murder on a kid called Carl Bridgewater . The police falsifyed evidence and made false statements to the courts . The acused were found guilty and imprisoned . Another one was the birmingham bombings where the police tortured the acused , made false statements against them and presented false evidence to the courts . There are VERY many examples of things like that hapening in the UK .

"If you do get arrested and can prove it's a mistake then they will probably decide to release you."

Thank you for confirming what i say with the word probably .

"The defendant doesn't have to say a thing"

In this case , with the "law" that they used the guy was imprisoned for exactly that . I wrote the word "law" like that because the basis of any justice system is that laws have to be legitimate . Just because a government passes laws doesnt mean that they are legitimate . Sorry but again as an example back to the laws in nazi germany against jews . They were passed by a parlament but they were in no way legitimate . There are and have been many examples of iligitimate laws from all around the world . Another aspect of this case and its legitimacy is the use of a law that was introduced for "terrorist" offences . The guy has not been acused of any "terrorist" offences .

"Laws which allowed that were repealed around 5 years ago."

Thanks . The british parlament has passed a law that was not legitimate

"British ..... law have presumption of innocence."

Had . As this case proves .
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Re: who uses a 50 character password?

Post by 3Di »

Okay, now that I understand the matter of this topic, should it please changed the topic's title? it is quite confusing IMO.
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