Finally some good news!!

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3Di
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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by 3Di » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:06 am

It is very well explained here:
http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/mondo/2 ... 97412.html

But.. that's Italian :) See https://www.deepl.com/translator- to translate it the best way.

Last news are:
In the letter not signed by Boris Johnson, one of the three texts sent last night to the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, a request was made in Brussels to grant the United Kingdom an extension of Brexit until 11 p.m. on 31 January 2020. The text specifies that it will be possible to ratify an agreement before this date "this period could end earlier".

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david63
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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by david63 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:51 am

The format, and content, of the letter was specified in the badly formulated law which required the sending of the letter. I haven't read the law but I suspect that it did not state that the letter had to be signed.

No doubt there will be another round in the courts tomorrow.

Don't you just hate bad loosers?

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canonknipser
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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by canonknipser » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:10 am

david63 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:51 am
I haven't read the law
Guess your english is far better than mine: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... d/data.htm

But I feel it is common sense that formal letters need to be signed.

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by david63 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:04 pm

canonknipser wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:10 am
But I feel it is common sense that formal letters need to be signed.
I would not disagree but certainly in the UK many(most?) government departments do not sign letters when sending them out but just have some generic "from" at the end.

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canonknipser
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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by canonknipser » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:13 pm

It's the same in Germany for standard (most time electronic generated) letters like "You can pick up you passport" or the tax assessment or similar, but most often there will be a clause like "This letter was made electronically and is valid without signature" - I didn't see a clause like that on the letter in question :roll:

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Gumboots » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:31 pm

Leaving the signature off was just plain petulance on Johnson's part. It's one of his specialties. ;)

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Wirral Talk » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:23 pm

Or it could be seen that to comply with the act he could not add his signature?

The Schedule to the act states the form of the letter, as it includes the signature block then strictly under the act he could not insert, delete or modify anything within the form.

Schedule Section one of European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019, 2019 CHAPTER 26 .....
“Dear Mr President,

The UK Parliament has passed the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Its provisions now require Her Majesty’s Government to seek an extension of the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty, currently due to expire at 11.00pm GMT on 31 October 2019, until 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020.

I am writing therefore to inform the European Council that the United Kingdom is seeking a further extension to the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty. The United Kingdom proposes that this period should end at 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020. If the parties are able to ratify before this date, the Government proposes that the period should be terminated early.

Yours sincerely,

Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by warmweer » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:49 pm

Wirral Talk wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:23 pm
Or it could be seen that to comply with the act he could not add his signature?

The Schedule to the act states the form of the letter, as it includes the signature block then strictly under the act he could not insert, delete or modify anything within the form.
...
Oh, that's good to know.
In future I'll also omit my signature on pre-defined forms and use the example set as a precedent.
@Donald, please don't react to this ... "precedent" is entirely correct in this sentence.

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Wirral Talk » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:43 pm

There is a difference between a form that is to be filled in and a document whose exact words and form were specified by an act of parliament. Either he was allowed to change it or he wasn't?

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by warmweer » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Wirral Talk wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:43 pm
Either he was allowed to change it or he wasn't?
I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to prove. Apparently the BBC and quite a few newspapers (not to mention legal representatives in the UK) are questioning the validity of the "request" for an extension as it was "made", and also whether any extension granted on the basis of that letter, and even the results of proposals/agreements made during that extension have any meaning. From what I gather BJ's action is also considered (by some EU parties) as taunting.
AFAIK having a document signed by the only party which has the obligation to write/send the document, does not constitute an amendment to the document. What is clear is that BJ was certainly authorised to sign the letter.

This whole episode just shows the weaknesses of democracy as we know it (despite the fact that democracy, in a sense, can block "majority" decisions being executed). (and NO, I can't propose any alternative).
I wonder how BJ's would (will?) react to a devoted Scottish independence movement. :shock:

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Gumboots » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:39 pm

Wirral Talk wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:23 pm
Or it could be seen that to comply with the act he could not add his signature?

The Schedule to the act states the form of the letter, as it includes the signature block then strictly under the act he could not insert, delete or modify anything within the form.
As Warmweer has pointed out, that's not an argument that's likely to get you far. I think it makes more sense to go with a scenario consistent with Johnson's character: "It doesn't say I have to sign it, so I'm not going to. So there. Nya." Particularly given his mood at the time. He was feeling very sulky after losing the vote.
warmweer wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:06 pm
I wonder how BJ's would (will?) react to a devoted Scottish independence movement. :shock:
We may be about to find out. Stock up on popcorn.

They might be prepared to let Scotland leave the UK. They'd certainly be glad to see the last of NI. But the Queen would never accept a border between herself and a supply of corgis, so Wales has to stay.

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:36 am

I'm just a yank and don't know much about this. however, as stated above if the law specifically says that he can not sign it, why do people still wonder if he is just being petulant or whatever?'


robert

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Gumboots
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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Gumboots » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:42 am

Does the law specifically say he cannot sign it? As far as I'm aware it doesn't. I just provides the overall form of the letter and leaves the usual space for an actual signature.

The reason to assume he was being petulant is because it fits perfectly with his character, and with his behaviour earlier on the same day.

Anyway it doesn't matter now. The latter has been sent and accepted, and Johnson is still a godforsaken muppet with his brains up his posterior and the ethics of a sewer rat. :)

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by warmweer » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:43 am

Two and a half years later and BJ refuses to even acknowledge that what he's trying to get through Parliament is possibly (probably?) NOT what the majority wants. The balance has shifted and the only correct/decent thing to do (IMHO) is to hold a new referendum: to determine what the current stance on Brexit is (leave/remain). The argument that "the people" have had their say already cannot be considered valid for an unlimited period of time and is, considering the time wasted, antagonising. The future of ± 70 million people is not something to play with.

Politicians, bearing the welfare of their country in mind, should realise that circumstances (and opinions) can change and should act accordingly. And a change in polity does not necessarily imply losing face.

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Re: Finally some good news!!

Post by Mick » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:45 am

You cannot have a second referendum, the problem is not the result of the referendum the problem is with the idiots charged with enforcing it.
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