Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

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warmweer
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by warmweer »

thecoalman wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:41 am True but they could also die from something else. Attributing someone's death entirely to the virus is not realistic when they have underlying health probelms. As an example if you have AIDS you will die from the complications of AIDS. It may say pneumonia on your death certificate but it was AIDS that killed you.
Immunodeficiency is a contributing factor. A simple cold can be fatal if the body's defence mechanism doesn't function normally.
It's very reasonable to accept that without the immunodeficiency, the deceased would have responded properly to treatment and death would not have been the end result.
Language-wise it seems like a semantical argument but realistically covid has (objectively) shortened the life of hundred of thousands. And taking this even further - all those people willingly neglecting the "imposed" distance measures + facemasks + hand (and object) sanitation + limitations on congregations ... have contributed to the number of deaths + financial cost to the society.

Seriously, jumping from a plane without a parachute is almost certain death and the death certificate will mention multiple medical issues (fractures, bleeding, probably even asphyxiation and decreased blood supply to the brain, whatever) but that could all have been avoided.

AFAIAC vaccination (for covid) doesn't have to be mandatory (even if the vaccine is deemed safe) but it's more than acceptable enough to impose restrictions on those who refuse to be vaccinated, and if that includes PCR testing and quarantine for travelling: so be it.

Frankly speaking: those who refuse vaccination but end up in IC shouldn't expect society to cover the cost for their treatment.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by thecoalman »

warmweer wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:43 am Language-wise it seems like a semantical argument but realistically covid has (objectively) shortened the life of hundred of thousands.
Certainly but that has to be weighted.
And taking this even further - all those people willingly neglecting the "imposed" distance measures + facemasks + hand (and object) sanitation + limitations on congregations ... have contributed to the number of deaths + financial cost to the society.
I'd agree but wearing a mask is significantly different than requiring someone inject something into their body.
Frankly speaking: those who refuse vaccination but end up in IC shouldn't expect society to cover the cost for their treatment.
If someone eats healthy and takes care of themselves should they be required to pick up the tab for someone that doesn't? Furthermore what if that healthy person engages in dangerous physical activities; rock climbing, skateboarding, recreational biking etc. If you are going to use the same logic, shouldn't they be required to pay more?

Point is that is a slippery slope, where do you draw the line.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by david63 »

thecoalman wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:15 am Furthermore what if that healthy person engages in dangerous physical activities; rock climbing, skateboarding, recreational biking etc
Whilst the healthy person can injure, even kill, themselves with those activities they are not going around potentially impacting on the health, and life, of others
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by warmweer »

thecoalman wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:15 am Point is that is a slippery slope, where do you draw the line.
That is 100% true.
So careful thought must be given before deciding on the measures.
Those dangerous recreational physical activities are in many cases covered already in the sense that joining a club for those activities usually involves a membership fee which includes insurance. Those clubs will (or should) offer the correct material to use and provide safety measures.
There is a difference when certain actions/sports are performed. Recreational biking is consider an acceptable risk and the standard medical insurance covers that. Surfing a low 2 foot beach break is probably considered normal and acceptable recreation, but surfing a 50+ foot wave in Nazaré shouldn't be (and should require a special insurance). The compulsory personal insurance covers the "normal" risks but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Some vaccinations are compulsory (polio has just about been eradicated that way) but still some fanatics refuse the standard children's vaccination, thereby risking harm to their own children.

Frankly for myself I don't really care whether everyone's vaccinated or not, I don't belong to the group most at risk (yet) and it's quite probable that I caught covid sometime March or April last year (not confirmed), even though I did my utmost best to avoid "risky" behaviour. But I care for others who are more at risk : underlying health problems, elderly, those in care homes where the inhabitants are more at risk, people who are required to have a certain physical contact with the general population (fire brigade, police, medical sector, movers, deliverers, clerks etc...).

I would probably agree with (and vote for) rules and regulations disallowing unvaccinated people to use normal flights for a vacation - let them use special flights (and then probably with higher rates) or at least PCR testing + quarantine.

This all easy to say but I do realise that it's still a bit early to declare the covid vaccines as safe as say the measles vaccines; not enough (trusted) statistical data available for all the vaccines available (e.g. there are serious questions about the Russian vaccines and IIRC there's only 1 of the Chinese vaccines internationally declared safe).

So I'll soften my stance a bit at this time, but eventually (if covid turns out to become a recurring problem) then it probably should become part of the default (compulsory) vaccination programme. (and yes there are always exceptions, even for compulsories).
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by thecoalman »

david63 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:58 am Whilst the healthy person can injure, even kill, themselves with those activities they are not going around potentially impacting on the health, and life, of others
It should be their responsibility to be vaccinated themselves or take additional precautions like wearing a n95 mask.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by thecoalman »

warmweer wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 am That is 100% true.
So careful thought must be given before deciding on the measures.
Those dangerous recreational physical activities are in many cases covered already in the sense that joining a club for those activities usually involves a membership fee which includes insurance. Those clubs will (or should) offer the correct material to use and provide safety measures.
Here in the US if I want to engage in those activities I just go do them especially in the state I live in that has millions of acres accessible to the public. At most there might be permit fees involved.

Some vaccinations are compulsory (polio has just about been eradicated that way) but still some fanatics refuse the standard children's vaccination, thereby risking harm to their own children.
I'm not disagreeing with this, someone that doesn't vaccinate their kids is a moron in my personal opinion. However, I can separate my personal opinion from my principles and my principles trump my opinions. Requiring someone to inject something into their body or penalizing them goes way beyond what I would find acceptable.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by warmweer »

thecoalman wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:41 am Requiring someone to inject something into their body or penalizing them goes way beyond what I would find acceptable.
Having worked in international development, I've got a yellow booklet full of vaccinations.
In some countries certain vaccinations are required: https://www.who.int/ith/2016-ith-county-list.pdf (just an example).

As an individual you either accept it and get to work, or don't accept it and look for another job ;-)
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by Mick »

Anglo American wouldn’t employ you if you hadn’t had their catalogue of jabs.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by 3Di »

Mick wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:15 am Anglo American wouldn’t employ you if you hadn’t had their catalogue of jabs.
Yet despite all their precautions they were and still are the most affected, ouch.... I would divert this argument to another arena but you know, it's difficult for me.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world?

Post by Talk19Zehn »

Hello Mick, first of all, if I understood your words correctly. I can not judge exactly.
Mick wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:45 am Aren’t we one big herd? Instead of migrating twice yearly we humans do it constantly. I don’t see it makes much difference whether it’s a field, a county, country or the world. The genome of modern humans shares common ancestry with the genomes of all other animals on the planet hence we’re all linked one way or the other.
Right and therefore there should be a herd immunity? I wear big worries in me ...
This is currently not possible from my personal view: The factor "time" and the progressive development of vaccines as well as the number of vaccinated people are crucial.

Well, 7.8 billion people should therefore be vaccinated to protect a (one, two ..) person who is not vaccinated. And the viral mutations become more complicated and are relevant. It seems more than hard to break this cycle at the moment.

https://www.who.int/en/activities/track ... -variants/

The type of animal husbandry, the animal breeding (conditions) can optionally be responsible for SARS COV-2 (as assumed) and should be considered.

The following comments I have read, among others, in the last days:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91470-2
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item ... china-part

The question is not clear to me which animals must be vaccinated / should too. I mean the species that are eligible for transmission.

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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by Christopher Shilts »

Having read the previous posts, I'd like to make a few comments.

First off, I keep hearing folks talking about un-vaccinated people like they are some sort of plague carriers. If this is true, who are you afraid they are going to infect? Are you worried about the people who have already received the vaccine, or the other folks who haven't? And what portion of the population needs to get the vaccine to achieve "herd immunity"?

Second, there are many reasons for people to be afraid of vaccines. There's a lot of horror stories coming out about various vaccines giving people heart problems if not outright killing them. Much of this news is being actively suppressed, but it keeps leaking out. We also hear about bad batches, some of which don't get caught before people have been exposed to them. There's also concerns that the vaccines are experimental, and as such dangerous, as their development has been rushed. In the states, people have no legal recourse (other than a very difficult to access government compensation program) if the vaccine harms them or a loved one. So if someone dies because of the vaccine, the government's compensation is capped at $370,376, where as other wrongful death settlements are often in the millions of dollars- talk about getting off cheap.

Some of you folks seem to think that going along with the lockdowns and government mandates will make this process shorter. This seems to assume that your government is operating in good faith. I'm of the opinion that this is not the case, at least here in Michigan- a place that's long been regarded by it's residents as a police state. Our governor condemned the anti-lockdown protesters, saying among other things that they where spreading the virus. Then a few weeks later, she does this. If you believe the government has your best interests in mind, I envy you. I can no longer believe a word that comes from any government official. Far from shortening the necessity of lockdowns and other dehumanizing activities, I believe compliance with government mandates only serves to embolden the government to further restrict civil liberties of their political enemies, while letting their friends run roughshod. Among these friends where the billionaire's, who made trillions while millions of our fellow citizens entered poverty.

I could go on if you'd like. Sufficed to say I believe this pandemic has been exploited by the elites for their gain at considerable loss to the general population. After having successfully divided national populations against their own people along every other conceivable line, they seem now to be further dividing them into vaccinated and un-vaccinated camps. I hope people will see through this, and not dehumanize each-other because of their vaccination status.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by KevC »

Christopher Shilts wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:40 pm There's also concerns that the vaccines are experimental, and as such dangerous, as their development has been rushed.
They have not been rushed. This is a common misconception.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by warmweer »

Christopher Shilts wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:40 pm I could go on if you'd like.
...
There's a lot of horror stories coming out about various vaccines giving people heart problems if not outright killing them. Much of this news is being actively suppressed, but it keeps leaking out.
I've come across those pulp magazine stories.
However, clinical studies put those"numbers" in perpective and currently the number of deaths due to complications arising from the common cold are much higher that those related to vaccination.

BTW, you didn't mention the sharp increase in "market value" of companies producing hydrochloroquine after a certain individual expressed his random thoughts (random in this case being synonymous to non-sensical).

As to vaccinations: everyone has a right to refuse them, but that will imply certain restrictions for the unvaccinated.
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by Christopher Shilts »

Alright, let's swap experimental out for Emergency Use Authorization This is still a rapidly sped up process. Some of the folks I talk to in person are concerned about the long term side effects. As you folks mentioned, there's many companies making vaccines, and some versions are safer than others- at least in the short term.

As to the reported deaths from the common cold being much higher than the vaccines, do you have the figures on how many people typically die from the cold in a year? I'm having some trouble finding that. But I did query VAERS to compare deaths from all flu vaccines in their system vs the COVID-19 vaccines for 2020 & 2021, and it said 4,263 people in the USA have died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine, while 95 people have died after receiving flu shots in that same period. Where all those deaths from vaccines? Probably not, but that's still a pretty high figure. And I think it's reasonably safe to rule out Covid-19 as the cause, since that would have also inflated the flu vaccination death figures. We can also rule out a small distribution, as the CDC claims that over half the US population aged 6 months and over receive influenza vaccinations.

Yeah, I didn't mention the increase in hydroxychloroquine manufacturing profits after Trump promoted it, but I agree with you this created quite the squeeze on supply. Did you read the white paper from America's Frontline Doctors?

What sort of restrictions on the unvaccinated people's liberties to you believe to be appropriate, and for how long should they be imposed?
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Re: Covid: the end of the known world? 🔚

Post by HaioPaio »

You could look also at another frightening coincidence.
Thousends of citizens have passes away after going to bed.
Many have died after reading newspapers.
I do not have exact figures. It seems that vaccines are not the only reason for sudden death.
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