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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:57 pm
by CLee
iloserman wrote: What makes you so sure he dosn't!

Because there is no proof he does.

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:59 pm
by Grandpops
iloserman, what proof would it take to convince you that he isn't an evil person?

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:01 am
by iloserman
CLee wrote:
iloserman wrote:What makes you so sure he dosn't!

Because there is no proof he does.


The man spent his youth being brain washed. Than out of what, 120 other people, this man gets choosen pope. Thats a red flag. In my mind.


ILM

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:06 am
by CLee
And was de-nazified after the war. But the fact that he was once part of the Hitler Youth, which every male at the time was part of, isn't proof that he has an alternative agenda.

Is the fact that Senator Bob Byrd was once a member of the KKK of his own free will proof that he is still an unwashed ultra-conservative racist?

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:06 am
by Anon
I have to agree with ILM here, what was so bad about the other cardinals that they had to choose this guy? Yes, they voted fairly and squarely (I hope!), but you have to wonder why the other people couldn't have been chosen

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:09 am
by CLee
Anon wrote: I have to agree with ILM here, what was so bad about the other cardinals that they had to choose this guy? Yes, they voted fairly and squarely (I hope!), but you have to wonder why the other people couldn't have been chosen

Perhaps they were looking for someone who was most like the previous Pontiff and he just happen to be the one.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:10 am
by iloserman
CLee wrote: Is the fact that Senator Bob Byrd was once a member of the KKK of his own free will proof that he is still an unwashed ultra-conservative racist?


I never said he didn't have a hidden agenda either. :P :lol:
Anon wrote: what was so bad about the other cardinals that they had to choose this guy?


I mean, did the church think they could do this, and not have some eyebrows raised? It just strikes me as odd.
Grandpops wrote: iloserman, what proof would it take to convince you that he isn't an evil person?


I want an open confession to his past, I want him to make public of what he was once subjected to. [ Wether it was on self-will, or because he was forced ]. I want him, to make sure that everyone knows of his past. If hes moved on from it, than it shouldn't be held as a secret.


ILM

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:16 am
by Anon
CLee wrote: Is the fact that Senator Bob Byrd was once a member of the KKK of his own free will proof that he is still an unwashed ultra-conservative racist?


Who's more influential? One Senator out of ?, or the person in control of 1,1 billion people worldwide?

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:28 am
by CLee
iloserman wrote: I want an open confession to his past, I want him to make public of what he was once subjected to. [ Wether it was on self-will, or because he was forced ]. I want him, to make sure that everyone knows of his past. If hes moved on from it, than it shouldn't be held as a secret.

I have checked around and he has been quite open about his youth. He has made no attempt to hide his involement in the Hitler Youth.
Anon wrote: Who's more influential? One Senator out of ?, or the person in control of 1,1 billion people worldwide?

Honestly, the Senator. The Senator can influence laws which every American must follow and Byrd is one of the most influential of the Democratic Senators. The Pope can only dictate theology, and then only the a limited extend, that most in his sect tend to ignore in the first place.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:31 am
by iloserman
CLee wrote:
iloserman wrote:I want an open confession to his past, I want him to make public of what he was once subjected to. [ Wether it was on self-will, or because he was forced ]. I want him, to make sure that everyone knows of his past. If hes moved on from it, than it shouldn't be held as a secret.

I have checked around and he has been quite open about his youth. He has made no attempt to hide his involement in the Hitler Youth.



Well I havn't seen it, or heard it.

CLee wrote: Honestly, the Senator. The Senator can influence laws which every American must follow and Byrd is one of the most influential of the Democratic Senators. The Pope can only dictate theology, and then only the a limited extend, that most in his sect tend to ignore in the first place.



Of the religous people I know, what the pope says goes. As he is supposedly the direct link to God. As he is choosen by him. Funny that they have a bunch of cardinals elect the pope.


ILM

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:08 am
by Grandpops
I found some more info about this.

Link: click here

MSNBC News wrote: Raised in the oak forest and pine foothills of Bavaria, he said he was enrolled in Hitler’s Nazi youth movement against his will. At the same time, the policeman’s son entered seminary studies in 1939 as a 12-year-old with “joy and great expectations,” according to his memoirs.

He recalled being deeply moved by the rituals of the church, such as candlelight services and midnight Mass.

Priesthood saved pope from SS
But in 1943, he was drafted as an assistant to a Nazi anti-aircraft unit in Munich. Later, he was shipped off to build tank barriers at the Austian-Hungarian border. He wrote that he escaped recruitment by the dreaded SS because he and others said they were training to be priests.

“We were sent out with mockery and verbal abuse,” he wrote. “But these insults tasted wonderful because they freed us from the threat of that deceitful ‘voluntary service’ and all its consequences.”

He deserted in April 1945 and returned home to Traunstein. It was a risky move, since deserters were shot or hanged. But the Third Reich was collapsing.

“The Americans finally arrived in our village,” he wrote. “Even though our house lacked all comfort, they chose it as their headquarters.”

Ratzinger was identified as a deserter and placed in prisoner of war camp near Ulm in southern Germany. He wrote that he could see the spires of the city’s cathedral in the distance.

“It was, for me, like a consoling proclamation of the indescribable humaneness of faith,” he wrote.

He and his older brother, Georg, were ordained in 1951. He taught theology and earned a reputation as a forward-looking prelate and took part in the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council, a major attempt to modernize the faith.


I don't think he's a nazi, but I don't really like him because in 1986, he denounced rock music as the “vehicle of anti-religion.”

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:27 am
by TC
Grandpops wrote: I don't think he's a nazi, but I don't really like him because in 1986, he denounced rock music as the “vehicle of anti-religion.”

at least he's intelligent and observant.

so the man participated briefly in the SS. so he's a deserter. both of these statements appear to be factual in our loose historical context.

Let me be very clear about this: this is not a thread to argue the merits or detractions of National Socialism; this is a discussion about one man's past and how it may or may not affect his perceptions or beliefs. stay on track if you wish this to remain open.

personally, i find that his past should benefit his position; what Hitler had in mind and what religion seeks to accomplish are very similar. methods are different, depending upon which century you choose to look at the catholic religion's past.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:04 am
by CLee
iloserman wrote: Well I havn't seen it, or heard it.

Then you haven't been paying that much attention.

Jerusalem Posts (registration required)

Excepts from above (via The Anchoress)

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:33 am
by Mr. C
iloserman wrote: Uh, let me prove to you, that he was infact a Nazi. He was a part of the Nazi Children Core, and later an anti-aircraft gunner.

I am in all seriousness, not picking on Germans, or, Catholics.


http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/42823.htm
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger — a favorite to become the next pontiff — joined the Nazi children's corps in 1941 as a 14-year-old and was later an anti-aircraft gunner.

At one point, he guarded a factory where slaves from a concentration camp were forced to work. He was later shipped to Hungary, where he reportedly saw Jews persecuted.

Ratzinger, a staunch conservative dubbed "God's Rottweiler," has said he joined the Hitler Youth when membership became compulsory. He and his brother were later drafted but deserted. The cardinal claims he never fired a shot and that resistance would have meant death.

Not so, Germans from his hometown of Traunstein told The Times of London.

"It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others," recalled Elizabeth Lohner, 84. "The Ratzingers were young — and they had made a different choice."



Thank you, good day.


ILM

Wow, that has absolutely no significance whatsoever.

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:56 am
by MHobbit
Just because he was in the Nazi army doesn't mean he's a Nazi. He was living in Germany and was forced to join the army.

Besides, to be a true Nazi you would have to have and believe in Nazi beliefs... all Pope Benedict XVI did at the time was join the army because he had to. Even if he had Nazi beliefs (I highly doubt this), he reformed later and eventually started his priesthood studies when he was 12(?).