China's homegrown holocaust

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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:31 pm

GanQuan wrote: I can only say that 99% people in China knows tobacco is bad for human health, many of them know cigarette causes lung cancer,

You've interviewed 99% of the people in China?
as for the rest of the "common knowledge", ask how many Canadians know about it.

Most of them, which is why the smoking rate is in decline here. Here in Toronto, 100% of our restaurants and bars are now smoke-free, by law. Workplace smoking is also banned; you have to go outside to smoke. Same goes for shopping malls.
Yes, you SHOULD believe whatever a news organizagion said to you on ANY issue, and never doubt anything about it, not even when someone honestly trying to tell you that maybe some of them are wrong, and this someone happen to knows this issue better than you.

And you've done more research on this matter than the reporter and the various medical professionals interviewed? From the sounds of it, your "research" amounts solely to a subjective reading of your friends.
I'm asking you how many companies does Canadian goverment owned, I'm not asking you whether your goverment take responsibilities for what these companies do or not. Your government is a responsible government, I never doubted this. But apparently, things are completely different in Canadia and China, we have many complex historical problems, and we are working very hard on those, you should learn how to consider things differently in different situations.

How can you deny that China is worse off than Canada in one breath and then admit that China has lots of terrible problems that Canada does not, in the next sentence? Will you now revert back to your previous "you have no right to say you're better off" statement?
Have you seen the original article written in Chinese? If you didn't, how can you possiblely believe that the original author meant to tell the public that tobacco is good for human health? even if he did, how can be so sure that this is directed by the government?

"Even if he did"? It's pretty obvious YOU never bothered reading the original article either, or you wouldn't have to qualify your statements like that. So yes, I'll take that reporter's translation of an article he read over your translation of an article you obviously never saw.
I never denied that there are propagandas here, actually I said there are many things should be changed in China, but on this issue, I can tell you that Chinese government did what is right.

It "did what is right?" And what was that? Does the Chinese government tell people about the health hazards of smoking? What exactly are they doing to stem the tide of more than a million people dying every year from tobacco-related illnesses?
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:49 pm

It "did what is right?" And what was that? Does the Chinese government tell people about the health hazards of smoking? What exactly are they doing to stem the tide of more than a million people dying every year from tobacco-related illnesses?[/quote]
1,306,313,812 = china's population = about less than .1%

America's smoking death stats= more than 600,000/year. population = 295,734,134, percent = more than .2%

I'd say they're not doing too badly.

http://www.canoe.ca/Health9909/29_smoking.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... os/us.html
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Post by Darth Wong » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:59 pm

Rabidus_Lupus wrote: America's smoking death stats= more than 600,000/year. population = 295,734,134, percent = more than .2%

First, I've never heard a figure that high before, because you're reading it wrong. It's 600,000 in "the Americas" according to the source you cited. You are confusing "the Americas" with "America". "The Americas" is North and South America, ie- the continents, not the USA.

Second, the people who are dying here are largely people who grew up during the era when the American government did the same thing that the Chinese government is doing now. This situation will get worse before it gets better.
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Post by GanQuan » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:09 pm

Most of them

You've interviewed most of the people in Canada?
And you've done more research on this matter than the reporter and the various medical professionals interviewed? From the sounds of it, your "research" amounts solely to a subjective reading of your friends.

I lived here for 24 years, besides my friends, I also have families, they have their friends, they come from every class of Chinese society, NONE of them has ever mentioned that smoke is good, almost EVERYONE of them told me that I shouldn't try it. What else do you want?
How can you deny that China is worse off than Canada in one breath and then admit that China has lots of terrible problems that Canada does not, in the next sentence? Will you now revert back to your previous "you have no right to say you're better off" statement?

When did I deny that? Is this superiority makes you think that Canadian cares about human lives more than Chinese?
"Even if he did"? It's pretty obvious YOU never bothered reading the original article either, or you wouldn't have to qualify your statements like that.

I will if I could, but not every news paper or magazine is right at my hand, and as a person who lived in the place you are talking about, I think I'm qualified to point out the obvious ridiculous statements in that article.
It "did what is right?" And what was that? Does the Chinese government tell people about the health hazards of smoking? What exactly are they doing to stem the tide of more than a million people dying every year from tobacco-related illnesses?

As I said in my first post
GanQuan wrote: I get information that how bad tobacco will do to your health every single day from all the sources, tv ads etc. and according to the law(I think you know who made it), every pack of cigarette here are labelled "Cigarette do harm to your health", also according to the law, cigarette manufacturers are not allowed to advertise their products in ANY public media.

More good news, public places in many cities, smoke is now forbiddened too.
Last edited by GanQuan on Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:17 pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:America's smoking death stats= more than 600,000/year. population = 295,734,134, percent = more than .2%

First, I've never heard a figure that high before, because you're reading it wrong. It's 600,000 in "the Americas" according to the source you cited. You are confusing "the Americas" with "America". "The Americas" is North and South America, ie- the continents, not the USA.

Second, the people who are dying here are largely people who grew up during the era when the American government did the same thing that the Chinese government is doing now. This situation will get worse before it gets better.
You're right, it's 1 every 72 seconds according to quitsmoking.net in the u.s. which amounts to 438k per year and is still a percentage of more than .148%. And I'd still say good job China.
Thanks for correcting me.
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Post by Darth Wong » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:22 pm

GanQuan wrote:
Most of them

You've interviewed most of the people in Canadia?

Don't need to. The successful passage (and enforcement) of harsh anti-smoking regulations means that most voters support the idea. You know? Votes? Those things that tell us what The People want? We like to do that "voting" thing here in Canada.
When did I deny that? Is this superiority makes you think that Canadian cares about human lives more than Chinese?

The Canadian government cares more about human life than the Chinese government does, which is why it outlawed cigarette advertising and never ran over its own citizens with freakin' tanks. I can't believe you obviously think there can be some argument about the unbelievably simple and irrefutable premise that western democratic governments are better than the Chinese government.
"Even if he did"? It's pretty obvious YOU never bothered reading the original article either, or you wouldn't have to qualify your statements like that.

I will if I could, but not every news paper or magazine is right at my hand, and as a person who lived in the place you are talking about, I think I'm qualified to point out the obvious ridiculous statements in that article.

Which statements in it are factually wrong? You cannot deny that articles like the ones cited do not exist, you have not denied that government-owned corporations are spreading false propaganda, you have not denied its statistics on the increasing rate of tobacco smoking among the general population (not just your little circle of well-educated friends) ... what exactly did it get so wrong? The idea that most of China thinks cigarettes are either healthy or not harmful? Since most of China is rural and not very well-educated, and you have just stated that you and your friends are well-educated, it seems obvious to me that you do not necessarily have that good a reading of the "pulse" of the general population either.
More good news, at many public places, smoke is now forbiddened.

Yes, and according to my relatives in Hong Kong, laws like this are meaningless because the government doesn't bother to enforce them. They also say that most people smoke and don't believe in the health risks. But hey, they're just my relatives, and they only live in a Chinese territory, I suppose they're lying to me too. Just like the doctors from my country who have gone over there to report back, just like the reporters, just like anyone who would criticize the Chinese government. All liars.
Last edited by Darth Wong on Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Wong » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:23 pm

Rabidus_Lupus wrote:
Second, the people who are dying here are largely people who grew up during the era when the American government did the same thing that the Chinese government is doing now. This situation will get worse before it gets better.
You're right, it's 1 every 72 seconds according to quitsmoking.net in the u.s. which amounts to 438k per year and is still a percentage of more than .148%. And I'd still say good job China.

You seem to enjoy deliberately missing the point.
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:44 pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:
Second, the people who are dying here are largely people who grew up during the era when the American government did the same thing that the Chinese government is doing now. This situation will get worse before it gets better.
You're right, it's 1 every 72 seconds according to quitsmoking.net in the u.s. which amounts to 438k per year and is still a percentage of more than .148%. And I'd still say good job China.

You seem to enjoy deliberately missing the point.

Your point was that China's government is misleading their people.
http://www.octagondigital.com/publicati ... PAP14.html
In recent years, China has made major progress in tobacco control by banning all cigarette advertising, increasing import duties on cigarettes, and banning cigarette smoking in some public places.

According to this article the government is significantly increasing taxes on cigarettes to help the problem of cigarette smoking in the country.
Did you do any research during your posting, or did you allow your countries propoganda to lead you?
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Post by GanQuan » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:05 pm

The Canadian government cares more about human life than the Chinese government does, which is why it outlawed cigarette advertising and never ran over its own citizens with freakin' tanks.

When did you see Chinese government "ran over its own citizens with freakin' tanks"? by your own eyes? or a relative on the other side of the planet told you? or a random reporter you never met told you?
Which statements in it are factually wrong? You cannot deny that articles like the ones cited do not exist

here and here
it seems obvious to me that you do not necessarily have that good a reading of the "pulse" of the general population either

I've found an article here, which should be the source of the article you quoted, this website is run by the major tobacco dealer in Guizhou Province, which is the major cigarette producing province in China. I've never visited this website before, I didn't know this company, everyone I can ask by now didn't know it either, and YES, it influenced every people in China, it successfully persuaded us that cigarette is good for our body.
Another interesting information, in the original article, many arguments are borrowed from the research results produced by western medical institutes.
Last edited by GanQuan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by TerraFrost » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:35 pm

GanQuan wrote: This thread let me know how some of you think about China, it's terrible.

I doubt is there anyone has ever been in China, you guys just sit in front of you computer, read some reports about things happend 16 years ago, imagine what happened there now, and talk about what is wrong or right in your own opinion like you know everything.
Tiananmen Square, yes, it was a tragedy, but I hope you still remember what happened in Kent State University during the Vietnam war on May 4, 1970 (you do know it right? your information sources are supposed to be intact)

I will grant that I do not have first hand experience on which to base my opinions on, but I hope you realize that Tiananmen Square isn't the only reason people think of China as a censorship-happy country. Specificailly, consider their censorship of the internet, as elaborated upon by this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_c ... p_in_China

If you think the wikipedia article is wrong, by all means, correct it. If someone reverts your changes, then try to justify those changes in the "Discussion" section for that article.

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Post by smithy_dll » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:12 pm

Canada doesn't need the US to protect it. Because I didn't see terrorists try to attack Canada now did I?

They don't have enemies in the middle east over the controvertial creation of a Jewish Homestate Israel.

Canada have always had a good relationship with the UK (once having been a colony of their and everything), and to my knowledge haven't fought a civil war.

They didn't aid terrorists in Afganistan to wipe out the Russian Communists. They same terrorists which are now on the FBI's most wanted list.

Canada doesn't have a gun problem, they don't have High School masacures. They are a vastly different country and don't need the US to protect them. They can stand on their own two feet.

etc...

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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:09 am

I thought this thread was about smoking in china?
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Post by GanQuan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:02 am

TerraFrost wrote: I will grant that I do not have first hand experience on which to base my opinions on, but I hope you realize that Tiananmen Square isn't the only reason people think of China as a censorship-happy country. Specificailly, consider their censorship of the internet, as elaborated upon by this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_c ... p_in_China

If you think the wikipedia article is wrong, by all means, correct it. If someone reverts your changes, then try to justify those changes in the "Discussion" section for that article.


It's 99% right, I never doubted that, as I said before, I'm not here making execuses for Chinese government, in fact, I found myself have nothing to say when I try to do that. I'm just trying to tell you that the situation illustrated by that article is at least partially wrong, Chinese people are not idiots, they do think and they know nicotin is bad.

EDIT: I mean the "internet censorship" when I said "It's 99% right", not "many Chinese people think cigarette is good", sorry for the unclear words.
Last edited by GanQuan on Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:02 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by Muas » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:04 am

Microsoft bans 'democracy' for China web users

Of the surviving nations of Orwell's "1984," China (for simplicity) seems to be doing well, if not beyond expectations when viewed along the changing times.

Nicotine has its benefits among which is a report that nicotine helps memory, but if the Chinese gov't really wanted its citizens to be better, there are more effective ways of providing the people with chemicals, like a patch for nicotine, or public machines that spray chemicals into the air.

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Post by GanQuan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:09 am

smithy_dll wrote: Canada doesn't need the US to protect it. Because I didn't see terrorists try to attack Canada now did I?

They don't have enemies in the middle east over the controvertial creation of a Jewish Homestate Israel.

Canada have always had a good relationship with the UK (once having been a colony of their and everything), and to my knowledge haven't fought a civil war.

They didn't aid terrorists in Afganistan to wipe out the Russian Communists. They same terrorists which are now on the FBI's most wanted list.

Canada doesn't have a gun problem, they don't have High School masacures. They are a vastly different country and don't need the US to protect them. They can stand on their own two feet.

etc...


I've deleted those words, and sorry about everything inappropriate I've said last night, I was too upset then.

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