US bans Commandments in courtroom

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nuckfan15
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US bans Commandments in courtroom

Post by nuckfan15 » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:05 am

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4627459.stm]BBC News[/url] wrote: The US Supreme Court has ruled against the display of the Ten Commandments inside two Kentucky courtrooms.

Judges had been asked to decide whether such displays were merely a tribute to American history or an unconstitutional break with the church-state separation.

But the court upheld the presence of a monument featuring the Ten Commandments outside a government building in Texas.

Conservative Christian campaigners and secular groups have conducted a heated debate on the commandment issue.

Judges ruled against the display of framed copies of the Commandments by five votes to four.

Speaking for the court majority, Justice David Souter cited the "predominantly religious purpose" of such displays.

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The judges, however, rejected a proposal to ban Commandment displays from all public buildings.

Some displays, they decided, would be permissible if they were portrayed neutrally in order to honour America's legal history.

In a five to four ruling, the judges approved the large granite monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments which stands in the grounds of the Texas State Capitol.

A lawyer opposed to displaying the Commandments had argued before the Court that as so many of the Commandments refer to God, they promote religion.

But supporters of the displays maintained that removing them would create huge challenges in dealing with thousands of other religious symbols that appear in public property.

Separately, the Supreme Court decided not to hear appeals by US journalists Matthew Cooper and Judith Miller against a contempt ruling by a lower court over their investigation into an alleged leak by the White House which exposed a CIA operative.




Nothing like freedom of religion. Maybe next it will be, lets alter the one dollar bill.
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Post by Magnotta » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:35 am

I don't see the big deal in this. The government should be seperate from religion. Nice to see something in America finally realize this, instead of the usual uber-christian propaganda and 'christian moral' issues which usually come up.

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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:42 am

It's about time. The government is not allowed to promote a religion, and posting the tenets of one particular religion in courthouses is a pretty blatant example of promotion. And don't tell me that the laws are based on the commandments; which law is based on "thou shalt have no other God before me"? Which law is based on "make no graven images?" Which law is based on "do not take the name of the Lord in vain?" Which law is based on "remember the Sabbath day"? Which law is based on "honour thy father and mother?" When did they make adultery illegal? When did they make coveting illegal?

The only commandments which are to be found in law are #6 (do not kill), #8 (do not steal), and possibly #9 (do not bear false witness, which might be interpreted as similar to modern perjury laws). That's 3 out of 10; a pretty poor record for a document upon which the laws are supposedly based. And those rules are found in all manner of non-Christian societies as well, so they are hardly unique to the Ten Commandments.
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Re: US bans Commandments in courtroom

Post by iloserman » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:56 am

nuckfan15 wrote: Nothing like freedom of religion. Maybe next it will be, lets alter the one dollar bill.



How is this freedom of religion? I don't see the 6 pillars of islam in there? So you can't claim freedom of religion, when you only show one.


Better none at all.


Score, one less religious item to stare at.


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Re: US bans Commandments in courtroom

Post by Magnotta » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:42 am

iloserman wrote:
nuckfan15 wrote:Nothing like freedom of religion. Maybe next it will be, lets alter the one dollar bill.



How is this freedom of religion? I don't see the 6 pillars of islam in there? So you can't claim freedom of religion, when you only show one.


Better none at all.


Uhhh, exactly the point, they're removing displays of the Ten Commandments from courts, in other words less promotion of Christianity.

Going along with your example though of the 6 pillars of Islam, I'd say America would likely be the last place to have displays on the Islam religion in their government buildings(I can just see the shear outpour of complaints if they did).

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Re: US bans Commandments in courtroom

Post by onigumo » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:51 am

Magnotta wrote: (I can just see the shear outpour of complaints if they did).


I don't think you would be exaggerating if you restated that as "I can just see the ENORMOUS backlash that would occur if they did".
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Post by FF8Jake` » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:20 am

I can see how this would violate the seperation between church and state, and really they shouldn't be there. What boggles me is that there was actually someone out there who gave enough of a damn that they were hanging there to "take action".

Way to go christian/atheist/whatever you are who like to stir up a stink over the most trivial of matters.

Meh, I get so sick of whinebags. They should quit crying over stupid matters and use that energy/funds to actually help people. No one gives a damn about the ten commandments in a court house.
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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:45 am

FF8Jake` wrote: I can see how this would violate the seperation between church and state, and really they shouldn't be there. What boggles me is that there was actually someone out there who gave enough of a damn that they were hanging there to "take action".

Way to go christian/atheist/whatever you are who like to stir up a stink over the most trivial of matters.

Meh, I get so sick of whinebags. They should quit crying over stupid matters and use that energy/funds to actually help people. No one gives a damn about the ten commandments in a court house.

Translation: "it doesn't bother me, so anyone who doesn't like it must be a bad person". Tell me, if you walked into a courtroom and somebody had painted "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, would that bother you?
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Post by starfoxtj » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:53 am

Odd here it says they allow old ones to be displayed:
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Post by Budman01 » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:20 pm

Hello!

I'm from germany, so sorry if I did not understand that correct. :oops:

Here we had the same discussion about a year ago, because in our schools (especially in bavaria) every class room must have a jesus cross on the wall. The courts here in germany decided to allow this practice without having any kind of other religious symbols on the walls (islam or whatever).

So what is interesting for me, how is it combinable for you, to not show the commandments but to swear the truth on the bible??

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a fan of these kind of symbols, whatever religion it is from. I think we should have all or none, but not only one.
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Post by FF8Jake` » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:53 pm

Darth Wong wrote: Translation: "it doesn't bother me, so anyone who doesn't like it must be a bad person". Tell me, if you walked into a courtroom and somebody had painted "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, would that bother you?
Actually, in case you didn't notice, I agree with the fact that they shouldn't be there. No religious symbol should. If the case is I agree, how could I be inferring that they are bad people?

Please don't put words in my mouth, I did not once say they are "bad". In fact, most of these are probably good, upstanding people who just like to bicker over trivial matters thinking it plays some critical role in making the world a better place.

As for "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, you could put it on every wall in a courthouse and I wouldn't care. Heck, make it glow in the dark. There are better things to worry about if you want to make the world a better place.

My stance it the same for all the bickering going on about burning the flag, too.
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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:09 pm

FF8Jake` wrote: Please don't put words in my mouth, I did not once say they are "bad".

Oh right, I forgot that "whinebag" is a term of respect in your neck of the woods.
In fact, most of these are probably good, upstanding people who just like to bicker over trivial matters thinking it plays some critical role in making the world a better place.

As for "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, you could put it on every wall in a courthouse and I wouldn't care. Heck, make it glow in the dark. There are better things to worry about if you want to make the world a better place.

The "there are bigger things to worry about" argument is utterly pointless. Given the massive problems the world has, you could use that argument to dismiss virtually any complaint as the act of "whinebags". And to be quite honest, I don't believe you. I think that if your government buildings were festooned with large engraved writings insulting Christians, you would be quite annoyed and you are only denying that here because you know it would look hypocritical to do otherwise.
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Post by FF8Jake` » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:24 pm

Darth Wong wrote: The "there are bigger things to worry about" argument is utterly pointless. Given the massive problems the world has, you could use that argument to dismiss virtually any complaint as the act of "whinebags". And to be quite honest, I don't believe you. I think that if your government buildings were festooned with large engraved writings insulting Christians, you would be quite annoyed and you are only denying that here because you know it would look hypocritical to do otherwise.
It's not "utterly pointless", it's common sense. Both sides of this debate are spending funds and time over something that isn't really important when they could be using it to help people in need. No one is dying over these commandments on a court room wall. Importance of matters can be gauged, and unless I see people dying over this matter, i'm not going to consider it very high priority. Those who do, even though they may have good intentions, need to look around at what really needs to be done and stop whining over some letters on the wall.

And I really don't care if you believe me or not.
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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:34 pm

Oh puh-lease, so anything which does not kill people is not worth getting upset about? What an absurd standard; I'll have to keep this in mind the next time you support any kind of activism to solve any non-lethal problem.
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Post by FF8Jake` » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:22 pm

Darth Wong wrote: Oh puh-lease, so anything which does not kill people is not worth getting upset about? What an absurd standard; I'll have to keep this in mind the next time you support any kind of activism to solve any non-lethal problem.
No, it's not worth arguing about when there are far more important things to worry about. I am not saying it's not a problem unless it's lethal, that was just an instance of a higher priority problem, I am saying that considering the loads of other, more significant problems, something like this should be put on the back burner. It's not harming anyone or helping anyone by removing it. It is a very, very trivial matter.
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