US bans Commandments in courtroom

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Magnotta
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Post by Magnotta » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:30 pm

Rabidus_Lupus wrote: Because the pledge of allegiance says "one nation, under God".


Could be Allah, could be Bramha, could be Vishnu, Sheeva, 'Great Eagle' or Bear, heck it could refer to some guy flying in on a comet for whom we must all kill ourselves for. Either way, just cause someone uses the word 'God' doesn't mean its suddenly the Christian god, so that doesn;t exactly give a right to suddenly display the 10 commandments in a court. The only way the 10 commandments should be allowed to be displayed in a court is if you can arrest someone for "not honouring the sabbath and keeping it holy".

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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:55 pm

MennoniteHobbit wrote:
The First Amendment banished religion from government a long time ago.

IIRC, it actually prevented the government from establishing a national religion. It also allowed for freedom of religion. So, it didn't necessarily ban religion from the government.

Freedom of religion automatically implies that no religion shall influence the laws. Because laws are coercive by their very nature, and if laws are influenced by any particular religion, then there is no freedom of any other religion.
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Post by iloserman » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:25 am

Magnotta wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:Because the pledge of allegiance says "one nation, under God".


Could be Allah, could be Bramha, could be Vishnu, Sheeva, 'Great Eagle' or Bear, heck it could refer to some guy flying in on a comet for whom we must all kill ourselves for. Either way, just cause someone uses the word 'God' doesn't mean its suddenly the Christian god



Well, yes it does. god in lower case could be any of those. God is specificly refereing to the Christian god, since it is a proper name, and capitalized. But just because its displayed in a document, or sung in a song, BTW: Those are not the original lyrics. They were added in before WWII to establish ourselves from the growing Facist parties in Europe. [ Wikipedia ] That alone is an injection that never should of taken place. Keep that in mind kiddies. Anywho, just because its in that document, or song, dosn't mean that song or document is also flawed.


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Post by MHobbit » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:35 am

Darth Wong wrote:
MennoniteHobbit wrote:
The First Amendment banished religion from government a long time ago.

IIRC, it actually prevented the government from establishing a national religion. It also allowed for freedom of religion. So, it didn't necessarily ban religion from the government.

Freedom of religion automatically implies that no religion shall influence the laws. Because laws are coercive by their very nature, and if laws are influenced by any particular religion, then there is no freedom of any other religion.


The First Amendment doesn't necessarily say that any form of religion, even documents, should not exist near government areas. For example, a display of a religion (appropriate of course) in a government building, as long as it would not influence any judgments or laws, should be fine. Or at least, that's how I interpreted it from the First Amendment.
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:42 am

Pezzoni wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: So you'd be offended at someone writing "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, but you don't see why a Buddhist should be offended at being "commanded" to worship the Christian God?
Are you offended when someone says you should buy their product? I'm offended by an insult to the religion, not a sale of a religion.


What if someone forced you to buy their product: 'I don't care what you believe, or wether you want this product, you're buying it anyway'.?
Nobody forced them to believe in god by putting up the 10 commandments. Your argument is pointless.
If there is only one God, and he is the top of the chain of command in life, where did he come from?

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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:19 am

Darth Wong wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:No, the Christian God is not mentioned once. There is "Nature's God", but that's not surprising since many of those guys were deists. Not to mention the fact that the Declaration of Independence has no legal status, which is why you can't appeal to your "right to pursuit of happiness" in court. Just try to find the word "God" in the Constitution. Go ahead, I dare you.
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/d ... ndence.htm

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to my point?
Yes, read the bottom of it, where it mentions 52 signers being orthodox. Either way, no one seems to have solid proof of what they were, but I'm sure if they thought people were going to nitpick everything they put down in order to prove a case that they were deists, maybe they would have been more specific and said God of the Christian religion.
If you don't agree with the First Amendment, don't live in the United States. There are plenty of countries out there which gladly mix church and state. Saudi Arabia, for example.

Do you disagree with a single law in your country? Please leave if so. You do realize that's a dumb comment to make, yeah? Quite frankly all the first amendment says is that the government can't make a law saying everyone has to follow one religion.

Obviously, you completely missed the point, which was that I was making fun of your "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" argument.
My argument was about a simple job which is quite reasonable, unlike yours.
So you'd be offended at someone writing "The Bible is for idiots" on the wall, but you don't see why a Buddhist should be offended at being "commanded" to worship the Christian God?

Are you offended when someone says you should buy their product?

If he's doing it as a representative of my government, hell yes. If my local representative was hawking deodorant or something, I would be up in arms asking why he is allowing some company to influence the way he performs his job. In fact, I would be demanding an investigation since he is probably misappropriating state resources for private gain.
Since you're not going to read yourself, let me help you. I said "are you offended when someone says you should buy their product. This being because I believe the country was founded on christian beliefs. You can say all you want that it wasn't, but I have a feeling most of the Cmericans, when this country first gained independence, were probably some form of Christian. And I'm sure the laws and what not were based in order to appease the majority.
And why should nonbelievers be told that they're somehow violating the spirit of the nation by NOT worshipping God, which is what those Ten Commandments displays in government buildings do?

Because the pledge of allegiance says "one nation, under God".

It originally said "one nation, indivisible". It was changed to "one nation under God" in 1954 under McCarthyism. Perhaps you should have paid closer attention in history class. Besides, even if you disregard this hole in your argument, the Pledge of Allegiance hardly overrides the Constitution anyway.
The reason it was allowed to change was because the majority of the country believed in it. If not, then I'm sure something would have been done about it when it was first brought up.
If there is only one God, and he is the top of the chain of command in life, where did he come from?

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Post by Techie-Micheal » Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:25 am

Okay, I think this has gone far enough. Instead of staying a decent discussion, it has turned in to nitpicking and flaming.
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