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psoTFX
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Post by psoTFX » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:50 pm

SHS` wrote: One doesn't get very far with "War in Terror" when you refuse to negotiate with terrorists. I have no idea how history will judge this one, though do bare in mind a certain Margaret Thatcher branded a certain Nelson Mandela on (mis)advice that he was a terrorist not worth negotiating with.

And on the flip side the UK did once negotiate with terrorists ... wow, that was successful.

You cannot negotiate with these people, you immediately weaken your position ... as we did above. Even ignoring that, how do you negotiate with people who's ultimate goal is the elimination of "our" influence on "their" people ... because that's what it comes to, whatever they may "demand" now.

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Post by Darth Wong » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:52 pm

Lagerman wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Actually, I know this is not a popular thing to say but they have made it clear what they want, and that's the withdrawal of western military forces from the Middle East. There's no need to pretend that they have not offered conditions for cessation of hostilities, although most people I know feel that they would only demand more if they got what they wanted.

They have proven that this isnt just what they want in the past by the many earlier attacks.

Precisely how have their earlier attacks proven that this is not what they want?
They hate our culture and way of life. There scum bags and terrorists. Unfortunatly the only way to deal with people who are willing to blow themselves up killing innocent people, are to kill them before they get the chance.

Of course they hate our way of life. But do you understand the practical and ethical difficulties associated with the idea of killing people before they've actually done something? What are you going to do, kill all fundamentalist Muslims or anyone who hates westerners? If you're talking about finding independent terrorist cells and stopping them before they can carry out their plans, good luck.
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Post by Lagerman » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:58 pm

You can't kill them all. What you can do is eliminate there funding sources. Tear down the large terror groups, and find out who is harboring these groups. We can't fight them here, which is what we will have to do if we attempt to neg and withdraw. We have to fight them where they breed. If anyone even remotely thinks that if we back out of the middle east these guys will keep to themselves is a fool.
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Post by Darth Wong » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:31 pm

Lagerman wrote: You can't kill them all. What you can do is eliminate there funding sources.

Such as Saudi Arabia?
Tear down the large terror groups, and find out who is harboring these groups.

Easier said than done.
We can't fight them here, which is what we will have to do if we attempt to neg and withdraw. We have to fight them where they breed.

That was the same rationale used for Vietnam: "fight communism over there, so it won't come to our shores".
If anyone even remotely thinks that if we back out of the middle east these guys will keep to themselves is a fool.

How do you know? I doubt it myself, but you seem quite sure of yourself and I don't really see how you can be so sure.
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:34 pm

They hate our culture and way of life. There scum bags and terrorists. Unfortunatly the only way to deal with people who are willing to blow themselves up killing innocent people, are to kill them before they get the chance.

I agree completely. Screw the court systems. Shoot on site.
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Post by Darth Wong » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:35 pm

Rabidus_Lupus wrote:
They hate our culture and way of life. There scum bags and terrorists. Unfortunatly the only way to deal with people who are willing to blow themselves up killing innocent people, are to kill them before they get the chance.

I agree completely. Screw the court systems. Shoot on site.

(sigh) do you understand that these kinds of people thrive on misery and hatred? Generating more of both will not make them go away.
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:44 pm

The ultimate goal of a terrorist is to make people fear them. Not hunt them down. I think most of them are relying on the fact they can get a trial if they're caught. What keeps people from doing wrong is the amount of punishment recieved for the crime. If you don't agree with my shoot on site idea, then at least we should torture them. Considering I don't believe in their heaven or any other, I think they should be punished by humans before they die.
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Post by SHS` » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:46 pm

Techie-Micheal wrote: You never negotiate with terrorists. Back when "old-fashioned" pirates of the sea were still the thing to do, countries negotiated with the pirates, and in return further killing was done, more shipments were stolen, and any attempts to negotiate were thwarted. This has since been proven time and time again in recent history. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on that.


Yaar, avast!

Neogotiation does and always happens, it's just the time scales on which such things occur. The Vikings are probably the best know pirate types of yore with a good lust of raping and pillaging between the 9th and 11th century. However as time progressed, societal changes, trading and technological changes which affected warfare, made such activities less desiresable.

Then through the process of Christianisation which came about from their own desires in a Christian dominated Europe, the Viking age ceased and the distinctive nation states of the Nordic countries came into existance, though occasionally they still had the urge to annex each other, but then that is the case with all nation states regardless of how they came into being.

So for the Vikings it happened over a period of a couple hundred years though the final "negotiation" was done by whatever leader of the peoples at the time to the Roman Catholic church.
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Post by Nephrus » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:46 pm

Rabidus_Lupus wrote: The ultimate goal of a terrorist is to make people fear them. Not hunt them down. I think most of them are relying on the fact they can get a trial if they're caught. What keeps people from doing wrong is the amount of punishment recieved for the crime. If you don't agree with my shoot on site idea, then at least we should torture them. Considering I don't believe in their heaven or any other, I think they should be punished by humans before they die.

A lot of these terrorists do not fear death either, so killing them will only make them a martyr in their homeland.

And don't torture them either. I mean, that's worse than killing someone is to keep them alive and derive some sort of entertainment or pleasure from watching someone else struggle as they hang on.
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Post by Rabidus_Lupus » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:52 pm

Nephrus wrote:
Rabidus_Lupus wrote:The ultimate goal of a terrorist is to make people fear them. Not hunt them down. I think most of them are relying on the fact they can get a trial if they're caught. What keeps people from doing wrong is the amount of punishment recieved for the crime. If you don't agree with my shoot on site idea, then at least we should torture them. Considering I don't believe in their heaven or any other, I think they should be punished by humans before they die.

A lot of these terrorists do not fear death either, so killing them will only make them a martyr in their homeland.

And don't torture them either. I mean, that's worse than killing someone is to keep them alive and derive some sort of entertainment or pleasure from watching someone else struggle as they hang on.

Torturing them is not for my pleasure or entertainment. Death for them is a gift. They go to heaven and get 40 virgins or whatever. So, basically, no punishment. Now, if you torture them, they will see there is punishment if they conduct things in ways such as suicide bombing.
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Post by SHS` » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:45 pm

psoTFX wrote: And on the flip side the UK did once negotiate with terrorists ... wow, that was successful.

You cannot negotiate with these people, you immediately weaken your position ... as we did above. Even ignoring that, how do you negotiate with people who's ultimate goal is the elimination of "our" influence on "their" people ... because that's what it comes to, whatever they may "demand" now.


Or acts of terrorism can ultimately end in peaceful settlement. ;) Political ideals are different, though as the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

Having said that, I would say that the Islamists are a bunch of infidels that are as un-Islamic as you can get. However, the Islamists can only do their work if they have popular support.

Detention without trial for "unlawful combatants" do nothing but stir the pot. Turkey's admission into the EU should have support of all 25 members states (Turkey is already in the Coucil of Europe afterall, and indeed long before some "wholly European" countries) as it would support the liberal/reformist Muslims and weakening the position of the Islamist factions and be a model of an Islamic, secular nation state.

The only reason it isn't is that it is Muslim and thus Islamophobia runs rife which ultmately appeases the very terrorists you're trying to "stamp out" and kicks down the groups whom would benefit such as women's rights campaigners.
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wow

Post by dirty » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:47 pm

thats awful... I just heard this morning... they really need to do something about irag and iran.... its getting ridiculous anymore. senseless killing...ffs :(

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Post by Swizec » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:49 pm

I was just wondering, hwo do you torture a man who blows himself up before you even find out what his intentions were or who he was?
(in case of most terrorist attacks lately)

or in any case, how do you possibly indentify who it is that performed the terrorism? most terrorist organisations aren't really all that organised in the traditional sense, they're built so each only knows of a few others which prevents the organisation from being destroyed and in most part if you "found" the perpetrator it would most probably only be someones unimportant servant who has just been thrown to you so you are pleased and leave them alone as they plot...

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Post by Fubonis » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:21 pm

Swizec wrote: I was just wondering, hwo do you torture a man who blows himself up before you even find out what his intentions were or who he was?
(in case of most terrorist attacks lately)

or in any case, how do you possibly indentify who it is that performed the terrorism? most terrorist organisations aren't really all that organised in the traditional sense, they're built so each only knows of a few others which prevents the organisation from being destroyed and in most part if you "found" the perpetrator it would most probably only be someones unimportant servant who has just been thrown to you so you are pleased and leave them alone as they plot...


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Post by JAS4Yeshua » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:48 pm

SHS` wrote: Or acts of terrorism can ultimately end in peaceful settlement. ;) Political ideals are different, though as the saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

I'm sorry, but there's a big difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter." The terrorist actions are happening against innocent people. They are cowards that believe the only way they can achieve their goals are by killing those that cannot defend themselves.

Freedom fighters, historically, haven't attacked innocents (at least not intentionally, or in general). Their attacks were against military or political targets. Was that always the case, no, but that was the tendancy.

The fact is, there is no negotiating with terrorists, for they have no regard for human life. You give in to their demands, and they'll only grow bolder and demand more. Dealing with terrorists is a no-win situation politically. You negotiate, and you are seen as weak by the terrorists, you fight, and you are considered an instigator, furthering their plans.

Personally, I agree with the War on Terrorism. It shows the terrorists that we are willing to stand for our freedom and what we believe in, and not willing to give in to their fear.
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