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JAS4Yeshua
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Post by JAS4Yeshua » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Darth Wong wrote:
JAS4Yeshua wrote:I did read the statement, and had responded to it appropriately. I never said that freedom fighters walk around with flowers. They do fight and kill. The difference is in how the battles are waged. Terrorists wage war on innocent people. Freedom fighters fight back against their oppressors directly, and most of the time they don't involve innocents.

Your government's use of these terms has never revealed such a pattern. They call Iraqi insurgents "terrorists" even when they directly attack American military troops. They called Afghan mujahedin "freedom fighters" even when they murdered innocents.

I don't claim to understand half of what my government says or does. The fact is, terrorists also sometimes attack military, while freedom fighters sometimes attack innocents. That doesn't tend to be the norm for either side, though.

I think, many times, most people, especially government and media, equates "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" as the same thing (hence the original statement I replied to), when, in fact, they are very different.

(Edited for clarification)
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Post by Anon » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:11 pm

To the German people Hither was a freedom fighter. Tell me, did hitler sound anything remotley like the calm, only-attack-what's-necessary-and-not-civilians vision of a freedom fighter you have?

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Post by Darth Wong » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:26 pm

JAS4Yeshua wrote: I think, many times, most people, especially government and media, equates "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" as the same thing (hence the original statement I replied to), when, in fact, they are very different.

Nonsense. Your definition of a terrorist as someone who uses terror campaigns against civilians to achieve his goals would also encompass every military city bombing campaign in history, including those at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, etc.

For that matter, try looking back through wars dating back to the American Civil War, the Crusades, and even the Roman wars of Imperial acquisition and you will see the same pattern repeated: nation-states have always butchered civilians if they thought it was necessary to achieve their goals.

The dictionary definition of "terrorist" is simply someone who uses terror to achieve political change (Merriam-Webster; look it up). And the relevant definition of terror is "violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands".

Instead of trying to use NewSpeak techniques of assigning positive or negative labels, one would do better to simply examine the morality of any particular individual action, and then judge its perpetrators on that basis.
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Post by realtechtalk » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:52 pm

Hello people,

I'm a muslim (terrorist as the western world thinks but born in Canada, eh) :). It's unfortunate that so many people have a warped perception of the reality of what is happening in the world and have turned it into a black and white "west versus the east" and "good versus evil". This is more of political stunt by the US and UK.

First of all, these attacks are not verified to have been done by Al-Qaeda or any Islamic group. It was simply an unverified posting on a previously unknown web site and the same people have been proven to have made false statements but the US media has especially jumped all over it. Anyone can make a web site and make any claim and how can anyone verify it? I saw a web site that says they offer free iPods .......

That aside, I will not delve into religion too much but this has nothing to with religion or Islam regardless of who the attackers were or what they say their reasons are. Having said that, Islam is tolerant, recognizes the other books and prophets that came to the Christians and Jews for example and we believe in one god. Islam forbids any unjust acts, especially against civilians and in no way allows unwarranted violence or attacks against any group.

There are two things that people are misinformed about besides the religious aspects. The first question people have to ask is why would people want to attack the UK or United States? It is quite simple because these nations and others are attacking and killing even more innocent people. Over 100,000 innocent civilians (women and children) have been killed in Tony and George's so called war on terror. Iraq has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda (well not until they entered a sudden group appeared called Al-Qaeda in Iraq.....convenient). The truth is it's an illegal war and both of them should be taken out of office and sent to jail.

50 people is the number who die each day because of Tony's illegal war. These people have asked for nothing but their freedom which I thought the US and UK were all about. It's not about hating the west or their beliefs, it's about giving them a taste of what they've done to their families each day. How many Guantanamo bays are around? To the American and British people I'd like you to go and read the Amnesty International Profile and the US and UK. Congratulations you guys are some of the biggest human rights violators in the world.

You should be very proud :).

BTW CSIS claims your war on terror is only increasing it.
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Post by psoTFX » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:07 am

Let's get a few things straight shall we? Firstly the "Western world" (which you go on to say is something to which we should not refer) do not equate Islam or Mulsim with terrorist ... that is a falacy, you go to the East End of London right now ... tomorrow ... and show me the divided communities ... you can't, because even through this the communities there are remarkably strong. I have had and still have many Muslim friends with which I'd happily entrust my life ... so please, quit the whole "the 'West' hate Muslims" bit shall we? That'll be a fantastic start to ending all this xenophobia.

Secondly ... and you demonstrate this remarkably well ... on the one hand you state that Islam abhore violence (which if I believe my friends is indeed quite correct) yet you go on to say the same old thing of " ... but ... you're getting a taste of your own medicine". Way to go my friend, way to breed hatred, congratulations. Let me say this to you, if you cannot simply say "I deplore the acts carried out" irrespective of who was responsible and distanced from any political issues ... don't say anything at all.

Thirdly, you're absolutely correct and as some people here and many in the media have said ... it has not been conclusively shown that these attacks where carried out by Islamic extremists. But ya know what? The commonalities observed in these attacks with those of similar events elsewhere suggests a strong likelihood they are by a group/s with similar "agendas" (I use that term quite loosely). Show me the evidence to the contrary if you wish to argue this point.

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Post by realtechtalk » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:23 am

psoTFX wrote: Let's get a few things straight shall we? Firstly the "Western world" (which you go on to say is something to which we should not refer) do not equate Islam or Mulsim with terrorist ... that is a falacy spread by certain clerics which have their agendas to push. I have had and still have many Muslim friends with which I'd happily entrust my life ... so please, quit the whole "the 'West' hate Muslims" bit shall we? That'll be a fantastic start to ending all this xenophobia.

Secondly ... and you demonstrate this remarkably well ... on the one hand you state that Islam abhore violence (which if I believe my friends is indeed quite correct) yet you go on to say the same old thing of " ... but ... you're getting a taste of your own medicine". Way to go my friend, way to breed hatred, congratulations. Let me say this to you, if you cannot simply say "I deplore the acts carried out" irrespective of who was responsible and distanced from any political issues ... don't say anything at all.


I'm not sure if I understand your first paragraph. I do my own research and I would say the west does hate muslims, just look at the hate crimes and the threats against the muslims in London are receiving right now (let alone the rest of the world......the Srebrenica massacre of 8000 muslims) Enough hate has been shown in this thread alone to prove my point :).

Now you are again stating that I am a terrorist I see. I am saying events such as London are a human reaction (......did you forget the IRA has bombed the UK for decades?.....they are Christians so does that make them terrorists?). If I came and killed your family wouldn't you try to attack me? Then that would make you a terrorist and if you are Christian should I say it is because of your religion? That is what I'm saying, if you go around killing innocent people, don't you think people would try to attack you? Was it Iraq that attacked the US and UK? Your logic is quite flawed my friend :(.

I didn't know that you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot say here :). I have told you the truth of the matter (sorry if it hurts to say there are countries who are far worse than 'terrorists'....I also forgot that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the US and so was Saddam :). You enjoy twisting and making plays on words.

In the mind of people like you, I will always be a terrorist and the US and UK will always be the good guys even though they have killed far more innocent people. There is a cause and effect for everything and you people seem to think people are attacking you for sport ....

Two rights doesn't make a wrong but thank you for showing again the intolerance and hate people have for Islam :).
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Post by Nesseight » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:38 am

Unfortunately, this kind of violence will never end peacefully, the only way to stop terror is by using our (western) superior intelligence and firepower to destroy the terrorist roots where (and before) they start.

There are causualties of war on both ends, but people with swords and outdated Russian weapons shouldn't stab at people that are watching them from satellites in space. The terrorists need to throw down their weapons and surrender, don't even speak, don't assualt whatever government we put in place (this is not the holocaust and we're not there to kill everyone and take their land/oil/whatever, though we could do that with less casualties than what we are trying to do now), that is the only way this war will end with no casualties, other than that, the "George and Tony" are destined to win through superior intelligence, training, and firepower.

We westerners respect, tollerate, and appreciate all religions, we are a diverse culture that loves and respects all, but our country was founded by Christians, not Islamics, and that is the reflection that we cast, and many of us believe that the Islamics are extreemists that hate us for that very reason, even if the extreemists are in actuality few.

You may consider us uncivilized through this "illegal war" but we consider it simply barbaric to attack people who are on their way home/to work/to church. The terrorists may feel that they have scored some sort of victory, but once our contries find out just who's behind this, there will be so many missiles going off that our causualties will pale in comparison (and we'll sleep sounder at night because of it), guerilla warfare (dressing up like civilians) causes your casualties, not any fault of our soldiers, whom I support 100%, along with their leaders.

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Post by psoTFX » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:42 am

realtechtalk wrote: I'm not sure if I understand your first paragraph. I do my own research and I would say the west does hate muslims, just look at the hate crimes and the threats against the muslims in London are receiving right now (let alone the rest of the world......the Srebrenica massacre of 8000 muslims) Enough hate has been shown in this thread alone to prove my point :).

What utter utter claptrap! READ and LEARN my friend ... the United Kingdom has a population of 58M people. Of those Muslims now make up several million IIRC. Of those a tiny tiny tiny tiny minority receive hate mail. You know what? The same thing happens in the Jewish communities, the Catholic communities, the Hindu communities, the Sikh communities ... shall I go on? Stop equating a tiny tiny minority of idiots (which exist in all communities) with the vast overwhealming majority.
realtechtalk wrote: Now you are again stating that I am a terrorist I see.

What the hell? Where are you getting this stuff from?
realtechtalk wrote: I am saying events such as London are a human reaction (......did you forget the IRA has bombed the UK for decades?.....they are Christians so does that make them terrorists?).

Did I forget? How dare you! No, the fact they killed innocent civilians for political reasons without attempt at discussion made them terrorists. The fact that even their own communities distanced themselves made them terrorists. It is you that fails to understand the term, not I.
realtechtalk wrote: If I came and killed your family wouldn't you try to attack me?

No, I would call the police and have you arrested, testify at your trial and watch you sit in jail for the rest of your life. But heck, maybe that's just my weird belief in the rule of law and the fact I choose to live in the 21st century rather than 15th.
realtechtalk wrote: Then that would make you a terrorist and if you are Christian should I say it is because of your religion?

I'll give you a better analogy ... if you broke into my house I would use reasonable force to restrain you. In doing so I would be acting lawfully. However, if I attack you in the street because I thought you may have been the one that broke in I'd be acting unlawfully, would be arrested and potentially face jail.
realtechtalk wrote: That is what I'm saying, if you go around killing innocent people, don't you think people would try to attack you?

I've killed no one ... and I'll wager that none of those brutally murdered last week killed anyone either.
realtechtalk wrote: Was it Iraq that attacked the US and UK? Your logic is quite flawed my friend :(.

Why do you keep going on about Iraq? The vast majority of Iraqis just want to get on with their "new" life ... a minority of people that as a result of the invasion (which frankly was legal under the original ceasefire agreements if we're being totally honest here) lost their positions and power over people are taking action to try and return to the old days. If those groups were looking out for "their" people ... why are they attacking them on a near daily basis? Why not just attack the infidels that invaded? Go on, I'm sure more of your particular "logic" will be thrown at this ... perhaps anyone that supports freedom should be punished?
realtechtalk wrote: I didn't know that you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot say here :).

I run this board ... I have the right to do here what I please so I'd quit the "smiling" if I were you.
realtechtalk wrote: I have told you the truth of the matter (sorry if it hurts to say there are countries who are far worse than 'terrorists'....I also forgot that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the US and so was Saddam :). You enjoy twisting and making plays on words.

You enjoy doing something I'm oh so familiar with ... and that's reading what you want to read.
realtechtalk wrote: In the mind of people like you, I will always be a terrorist

You have a real inferiority complex.
realtechtalk wrote: Two rights doesn't make a wrong but thank you for showing again the intolerance and hate people have for Islam :).

Strange that as I say I have had and still have my Muslim friends despite my apparent hatred of Islam ... perhaps it's a simply a case of their being better Muslims than you, hum ho.
Last edited by psoTFX on Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Pit » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:42 am

Nesseight wrote: Unfortunately, this kind of violence will never end peacefully, the only way to stop terror is by using our (western) superior intelligence and firepower to destroy the terrorist roots where (and before) they start.

No, no, no! It is sometimes required to seek out and kill terrorists, yes. But you cannot end hatred with bombs alone, unless you bomb everyone.
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Post by JAS4Yeshua » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:54 am

Darth Wong wrote:
JAS4Yeshua wrote:I think, many times, most people, especially government and media, equates "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" as the same thing (hence the original statement I replied to), when, in fact, they are very different.

Nonsense. Your definition of a terrorist as someone who uses terror campaigns against civilians to achieve his goals would also encompass every military city bombing campaign in history, including those at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, Dresden, etc.

For that matter, try looking back through wars dating back to the American Civil War, the Crusades, and even the Roman wars of Imperial acquisition and you will see the same pattern repeated: nation-states have always butchered civilians if they thought it was necessary to achieve their goals.

The dictionary definition of "terrorist" is simply someone who uses terror to achieve political change (Merriam-Webster; look it up). And the relevant definition of terror is "violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands".

Instead of trying to use NewSpeak techniques of assigning positive or negative labels, one would do better to simply examine the morality of any particular individual action, and then judge its perpetrators on that basis.

I am not denying any of these statements, with the exception of your absolute. Saying nation-states have "always" butchered would be erroneous. Yes, it did happen (which I never did deny) but innocents were never the true target.

The terrorists today mostly attack civilians, as is evidenced in London, Madrid, New York, Jerusalem, and other locations around the world. There is no justification for that in my mind. I'm not using "NewSpeak," I'm simply stating things as straight forward as I can. The fact is, the morality of attacking civilians through terror is wrong. That does not mean that war or fighting for freedom is wrong. There is a time and a purpose for everything, but never a place for hate and fear.
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Post by Nesseight » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:56 am

realtechtalk wrote: I'm not sure if I understand your first paragraph. I do my own research and I would say the west does hate muslims

No, you're wrong, the west loves muslims, they make us feel safer and more secure.
realtechtalk wrote: Now you are again stating that I am a terrorist I see.

Can you name another reason a muslim would be in Canada using technology to communicate with people acrossed the world?
realtechtalk wrote: If I came and killed your family wouldn't you try to attack me?

You sound almost certain that you could pull it off! Perhaps you have some kind of special training that I am unaware of? Most suspicious...
realtechtalk wrote: Was it Iraq that attacked the US and UK?

Yes! The middle east did infact attack the US and the UK.
realtechtalk wrote: I didn't know that you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot say here :)

That's what the "moderator"ish symbol under his name means.
realtechtalk wrote: I also forgot that Osama Bin Laden was funded by the US and so was Saddam :)

You don't bite the hand that feeds you! They chose to do that, and look what is happening because of it.
realtechtalk wrote: In the mind of people like you, I will always be a terrorist and the US and UK will always be the good guys even though they have killed far more innocent people. There is a cause and effect for everything and you people seem to think people are attacking you for sport...

Why would we think you're a terrorist, being Canadian and all? Are you planning on doing something to Canada that would make us think that?
realtechtalk wrote: Two rights doesn't make a wrong but thank you for showing again the intolerance and hate people have for Islam :).

Oh please, we have religious diversity and were very upset once the Quran was used as toilet paper, though we're civilized so we didn't kill anyone over something as trivial as a book.

One book destroyed, critical damage to the Islamic religion, some lives lost, yet somehow Islam lives on without that book! It's a miracle!

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Post by psoTFX » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:02 am

Nesseight, you are not helping here ... if you wish to be a racist, go be a racist somewhere else.

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Post by Nesseight » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:04 am

No, you misunderstand, racism is not my intent! I am merely being sarcastic.

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Post by psoTFX » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:05 am

You need to learn the time and place for sarcasm ... this is neither the time, nor the place. Am I making myself clear? I think this topic, thanks it must be said to yours and realtechfan's posts is at an end here. I appologise to everyone else that were using this topic to express sympathy and/or debate on a reasoned level.

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