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prince_of_oreon
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Post by prince_of_oreon » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:26 pm

Darth Wong wrote: Characterizing comments about Christianity being anti-homosexual as "Christian bashing" is a gross exaggeration and you know it. No one is running around saying that all Christians are evil, or that all Christians should suffer discrimination. We're just pointing out the FACT that Christianity is the primary driving force behind anti-gay movements in North America. And PoO, don't pretend you've never hard of conservative Christians in Canada. The entire Conservative Party has made gay marriage its number one issue, for religious reasons.
I was not referring to this discussion or even necessarily this forum in specific, but forums en masse seem to find a way to place the blame for social ills at the feet of Christians time and again.
Darth Wong wrote: As for "liberal" or "moderate" Christians, they exist whether you like it or not.
Perhaps they do, that does not make them the norm, nor does it mean that Christians
Darth Wong wrote: They are not "bad" Christians, nor are they heretics.
You may be right again. They might not be Chrsitians at all. Biblically defined, a 'Christian' is not about religion but about being 'born again', and coming into a personal relationship with God through Christ Jesus. 'Christendom' is an unfortunate masquerade of Christianity. 'Christian' means literally 'one of Christ' and there are some who claim to be Christ's who are not, including the entire 'Christian' religious systems. I know you are going to respond with 'no true scotsmen' but that's ok.
Darth Wong wrote: And when they disagree with you, you try to dismiss them by calling them "anti-scriptural"; a charge which they could probably level right back at you.
The differencee being they could not level it back with scriptural authority on their side. That makes all the difference.

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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong » Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:26 pm

prince_of_oreon wrote: I was not referring to this discussion or even necessarily this forum in specific, but forums en masse seem to find a way to place the blame for social ills at the feet of Christians time and again.

"Forums en masse?" That's a nice way of making a vague accusation. The Gallup polls say otherwise: most Americans think very highly of Christianity and Christians and very poorly of atheists. In fact, in the last poll it was shown that more than half of Americans would flat refuse to vote for an atheist regardless of his abilities or his views. So please stop pretending that you're being oppressed.
Darth Wong wrote:And when they disagree with you, you try to dismiss them by calling them "anti-scriptural"; a charge which they could probably level right back at you.
The differencee being they could not level it back with scriptural authority on their side. That makes all the difference.

In other words, "I interpret the Bible correctly, and all those other Christians interpret it all wrong". I suppose nothing I or anyone else says can possibly put a dent in that kind of rigid certainty.
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Riamus
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Re: Yeah

Post by Riamus » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:25 pm

Flaming_cows wrote: I have seen many christians denounce other beliefs. Most of the time not other beliefs in particular, but in general. They say things like "Jesus is your only chance for salvation, convert or you will burn in hell". In my mother's church, a group of parishoners started the idea that the church needed to pray for the 'heathen jews' to "save their souls and hope God will show them the true way to heaven lest they burn forever in hell".


Those are not the norm and they give a bad name to Christianity. Jesus befriended tax men (who at the time were rather wicked), prostitutes, etc. He made numerous comments and references about NOT attacking others for their beliefs. If we were supposed to denounce other beliefs, Jesus wouldn't have ever gone to the gentiles in the first place.

And, as far as Judaism, Jews are still God's chosen people. That doesn't necessarily mean they will enter Heaven, but they are still the chosen of God. Calling them "heathen Jews" is definitely not a true Christian attitude.

Although, the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one way to Heaven, it does not teach that you should force your beliefs on others. It teaches to lead them, answer questions, etc... but above all, to live your life like Christ as that will bring more people to Christ than anything you could ever say. We were given free will for a reason. :)

It is true that probably 75% of Americans will say they are Christian (based on polls I've seen in the past... those may not be accurate polls, of course). However, if you really look at what they believe and if they are really followers of Christ, you'll find that only perhaps 20% of Americans really are Christians. A great quote I've heard in the past says -- "Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger." It's very accurate and true. :)
Darth Wong wrote: In fact, in the last poll it was shown that more than half of Americans would flat refuse to vote for an atheist regardless of his abilities or his views.


I think that's incorrect. Consider the number of presidents who were not Christians. They were voted in. There's nothing wrong with an atheist for a president. There is also nothing wrong with a Christian as a president. Most likely, the wording on that poll was such that atheist was seen as someone "evil" or whatever. Not believing in God doesn't make someone bad.
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Re: Yeah

Post by Darth Wong » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:03 pm

Riamus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:In fact, in the last poll it was shown that more than half of Americans would flat refuse to vote for an atheist regardless of his abilities or his views.

I think that's incorrect. Consider the number of presidents who were not Christians. They were voted in.

Please name one in living memory. In fact, every president throughout all of US history has even declared membership in a specific Christian denomination except for Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln when he was assassinated. In other words, only two presidents were ever voted in despite being non-Christian (at least in public; some others privately expressed negative comments about Christianity despite being members of Christian church denominations, but they all date back to the early days of the nation). One of them (Jefferson) benefited from his stature as one of the pre-eminent leaders of the revolution. The other one (Lincoln) was careful to publicly attend church with his wife even though he did not declare his own allegiance to it. Becoming president in the United States without wearing a cross is exceedingly difficult, to say the least. And in the present political climate, it's probably impossible.
There's nothing wrong with an atheist for a president. There is also nothing wrong with a Christian as a president. Most likely, the wording on that poll was such that atheist was seen as someone "evil" or whatever. Not believing in God doesn't make someone bad.

I agree, but according to the Gallup polls, a majority of Americans don't. And unless you have some reason to declare that the poll was deliberately distorted and misrepresented, you should not cast such accusations.
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Post by meganpru » Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:13 pm

It's really quite odd that Christianity has become affiliated with right-wing politics and the Republican party, especially in light of Jesus' views. I was raised Catholic and I am now Buddhist, but from everything in the Bible that I've read, Jesus seems like a pretty liberal socialist kind of guy. I mean, he preached helping everyone and accepting everyone, he fed the hungry and hung out with the poor and the outcasts of society. You won't see Bush doing that any time soon. If Jesus lived today, he would probably be branded a terrorist because of his revolutionary views, and I bet you'd be more likely to see him at a Rainbow Gathering than hanging out with the neo-cons. He was a hippy. He lived a simple lifestyle and was all about free love, socialized health care, and peace.

There are moderate and liberal Christians, mostly those who live according to how Christ really lived. Most Christian denominations have become very bureaucratic and corrupt, it's kind of hard to avoid when churches get to be so big. I choose to avoid the whole organized religion thing altogether and practice my own spirituality as I see fit, influenced by teachers like Buddha and Jesus, not by some Church that tells me what I have to believe and how I have to vote.

There is a separation of church and state for a reason. Unfortunately the current administration can't seem to keep that separation very clear. Everyone has a right to believe what they want, both politically and religiously, and no one should persecute another person's beliefs. We also shouldn't be basing public policy on religious beliefs, because people's freedom of religion ends up being trampled.

Well that's probably enough rambling for now on politics and religion. See why politicians don't spend their time discussing religion? Too many views and too much time spent talking! :)

If any of you lefty/activist/hippy types are interested, you may want to check out my magazine/site: www.meganpru.com/unplug/

peace!
megan

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