UK Police shoot *Suspected* suicide bomber

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Pezzoni
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UK Police shoot *Suspected* suicide bomber

Post by Pezzoni » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:58 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm
I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.


So here was have a *suspected* suicide bomber who has just been killed. Nevermind the fact that as far as the article suggests, he was just a suspect, not necassarially a threat and was incapacited when he was shot (excessively) to the point of killing him...
Is this the way it's going to go in the future?
Fair enough in some situations, on 11/9, the airliners had evidently been hijacked, and the authorities knew about this - They should have been shot down before they reached New York (and would have been, most likely, in the UK), but this action above seems to be a little over the top.

So then - Should the Police be able to shoot anyone in any situation in the interests of counter terrorism?

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Post by sonyboy » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:08 am

Asian eh? This guy must came from an Asian Muslim country.

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Post by arhodes16 » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:10 am

We're still only hearing random descriptions from civilians at the scene at this time, I don't think its fair to pass judgement on the situation until all of the facts are known.

In the UK it's extremely rare for a gun to be used, never mind repeated shots for the obvious purpose of killing the guy at close range whilst he was apparantly on the floor anyway. I think it's fairly obvious what they thought he must have been doing, and I have no issue in this case with the action taken - I've just heard a report from a guy who claims to have witnessed it that this guy was wearing a large padded coat - not really something you'd expect to be wearing on the tube in July. Never mind the fact he was being pursued by plain clothed armed police and he chose to run on to a packed train, the day after multiple bomb attacks.

If people are being randomly shot in the street for looking like terrorists then I see your point, but from what we know so far it's a guy who they presumably were certain was going to blow himself up in a confined space. I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to decide whether to shoot, but if I thought he were going to blow himself up I don't think anyone would or could think twice.

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Post by Techie-Micheal » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:30 pm

arhodes16 wrote: We're still only hearing random descriptions from civilians at the scene at this time, I don't think its fair to pass judgement on the situation until all of the facts are known.

In the UK it's extremely rare for a gun to be used, never mind repeated shots for the obvious purpose of killing the guy at close range whilst he was apparantly on the floor anyway. I think it's fairly obvious what they thought he must have been doing, and I have no issue in this case with the action taken - I've just heard a report from a guy who claims to have witnessed it that this guy was wearing a large padded coat - not really something you'd expect to be wearing on the tube in July. Never mind the fact he was being pursued by plain clothed armed police and he chose to run on to a packed train, the day after multiple bomb attacks.

If people are being randomly shot in the street for looking like terrorists then I see your point, but from what we know so far it's a guy who they presumably were certain was going to blow himself up in a confined space. I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to decide whether to shoot, but if I thought he were going to blow himself up I don't think anyone would or could think twice.
I absolutely see your point and I agree. My concern though, if he did indeed have explosives, the trampling and firearm use could have turned it in to an explosive situation, no pun intended.
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Post by psoTFX » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:49 pm

These are highly trained guys Michael :) I also wouldn't necessarily assume they were police.

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Re: UK Police shoot *Suspected* suicide bomber

Post by Darth Wong » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:36 pm

Pezzoni wrote: So then - Should the Police be able to shoot anyone in any situation in the interests of counter terrorism?

You know, there's two possibilities:

1) He was a terrorist.

2) He was not a terrorist but he was so stupid that he thought the best way to evade police attention would be to run into a crowded subway while wearing a thick padded coat, just after a campaign of terrorist bombings on that same subway.

If #1, it's not exactly a great loss to society. If #2, then we have a term for that: natural selection.
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Post by Pit » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:05 pm

I'm mostly worried about the idea of people being both "plain clothes" and "armed". It's just a generally disturbing combination.
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Post by action_man » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:11 pm

There has been complaints from a muslim community that there is a new "shoot to kill" policy by the police Link.

Bystanders claim to have seen this man trying to evade police officers by running into a crowded subway station and attempting to board a train, one bystander claims to have seen this man wearing a belt with wires coming from it.

What are the police supposed to do in this situation ? ...

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Hm...

Post by Riamus » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:51 pm

I just saw information on the news about this. It had an interview with a British journalist who was an eyewitness. Normally, journalists are very thorough. He said nothing about any wires or anything like that.

They also said that he was just one of the suspects from the previous attacks who was being chased down. It doesn't sound like he was doing anything except trying to get away from the police.

In either case, 5 shots to the head AFTER the suspect was pinned to the ground with two guys holding him down? In the US, those cops would be facing serious charges. Not sure how things are in London. I'd say that was excessive force no matter how you look at it.

Now, perhaps the guy did have a bomb on him. Perhaps he was about to detonate it. I have a feeling, however, that this wasn't the situation. We'll see as more news comes in about the killing.
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Post by unsignedonline » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:55 pm

I think it is also stupid to kill possibly the only lead you'll have to get to the leader.

London cops.. stupid or what?

Why not take him in and question him instead of killing him on site? He wouldn't talk at first but the government has ways of making terrorists talk of course :P

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Re: Hm...

Post by Flaming_cows » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:08 pm

Riamus wrote: In either case, 5 shots to the head AFTER the suspect was pinned to the ground with two guys holding him down?

Well, after the first one, the rest are a bit irrelevent.

Anyway, like Darth said, it's either one less terrorist, or one less detrament to the gene pool.

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Re: Hm...

Post by Graham » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:18 pm

Riamus wrote: In either case, 5 shots to the head AFTER the suspect was pinned to the ground with two guys holding him down? In the US, those cops would be facing serious charges. Not sure how things are in London. I'd say that was excessive force no matter how you look at it.


If my memory is correct, standard procedure in the UK is that if the police fire a shot (fatal or not), the officer is taken off front-line duty and the shooting is investigated by an outside body (Police Complaints Commision IIRC)
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Good to know

Post by Riamus » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:22 pm

That's good to know. It's good that they have some kind of outside investigation into shootings by the cops. Helps prevent cops from just doing what they want and getting the other cops to look the other way. :)
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Re: Good to know

Post by Techie-Micheal » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:50 pm

Riamus wrote: That's good to know. It's good that they have some kind of outside investigation into shootings by the cops. Helps prevent cops from just doing what they want and getting the other cops to look the other way. :)
The US is the same way, by the way. :) IA (Internal Affairs) typically investigates, while the officer is put on administrative leave. I add that simply because the UK is not the only place that does that, and I'm sure many others do as well.
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Riamus
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Yep

Post by Riamus » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:58 pm

Yeah, I mentioned previously that the US would crack down on them and had said that I wasn't sure what happened in England, so it was pointed out. :)

Thanks for clearing it up for anyone not from the US who may not know, though.
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