Al-Qaeda video threatens Melbourne as next bomb

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Ryom
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Post by Ryom » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:17 am

Terrorists are already winning with the continual and sometimes succesful attempts by certain members of the government to reduce civil liberties.

There is a battle that should be fought there as well as here, and that is to mainting the freedoms the founding fathers of the U.S. envisioned. I also say we protect and observe the rights of all people as if there were citizens of America, even if they are not. I'm thinking specifically of Guantanamo Bay in the last sentence, as well as all-around in general.

We also need to get our (talking to fellow Americans) government to stop meddling in affairs overseas that it shouldn't be. Once we get our hand out of the honeypot, the bees will lose interest and leave us alone. Terrorist attacking us because they think we are fat, lazy, stupid, and rich makes little sense. Terrorists attacking us because they or people they are close to have been affected negatively by our foreign policy does make sense.

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Post by quick5pnt0 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:23 am

phantomk wrote: In thier eyes, the US and its allies invaded thier country and they don't want them thier. That's why they are useing terrorist attacks. If the US and its allies would pull out of all countries which they have invaded over the past few decades, then we wouldn't have all this BS terorist attacks. But the US will never do that, because of all the glorious oil they want.


Are you kidding me? Were we bombing iraq and afghanistan on sept 11? NO.
These morons are doing this stuff because they are insane, pure and simple. Instead of doing something with their lives they sit around thinking of ways to kill people like the mental patients they are. If it wasnt for one thing it would be for something else. Nothing will make them happy. Saying that this is somehow americas fault is total bs.
Heimidal wrote: they see terrorizing us as breaking down the evils of Western culture.


Exactly. With that said no matter what we do they will still do this sort of stuff. At the time of sept 11 we were not in their country trying to instill our ways of life but they still carried out the attacks of that day. The reality of it is the terrorism they carry out does nothing to help them at all. It makes the world look down on their culture, and it only fires the US up to attack back. Afghanistan and Iraq would still be as they were pre-9/11 but instead because of 9/11 those countries are extremely different than what these maniacs are fighting for. Basically it just backfires on them, and the same will go if they attack los angeles.

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Post by Magnotta » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:48 am

quick5pnt0 wrote: Are you kidding me? Were we bombing iraq and afghanistan on sept 11? NO.


Absolutely right, America wasn't bombing those countries on September 11th. Before September 11th however is another story.....

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Post by the rat » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:12 am

quick5pnt0 wrote: Are you kidding me? Were we bombing iraq and afghanistan on sept 11? NO.


This has already been covered. No you were not bombing Afghanistan or Iraq but you were meddling in the affairs of others. The West has been meddling since WW1 and it's about time we stopped.

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Post by Caedmon » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:37 am

Just warning you guys now, if this veers off the track of discussion, it's gonna meet the mean side of my trash bin :)
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Post by psoTFX » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:05 am

the rat wrote:
quick5pnt0 wrote:Are you kidding me? Were we bombing iraq and afghanistan on sept 11? NO.


This has already been covered. No you were not bombing Afghanistan or Iraq but you were meddling in the affairs of others. The West has been meddling since WW1 and it's about time we stopped.

Britain meddled in the affairs of a quarter of the world for 400+ years ... I don't see any Hindu's planting bombs in London ... I don't see any Aboringinal's bombing London ... I don't see any Maori's bombing London ... I don't see Native American's bombing London ... I don't see American's bombing London(!) ... I don't see ... continue for all other cultures over which the UK exerted Imperial control.

Please, pack it in with this "It's all the wests fault" crap ... because plain and simple and in no uncertain terms ... it's bullcr*p. People have a choice, they can engage in peaceful discussion or non-violent protest or they can murder and maim. Terrorists, any and all terrorists take the second option.

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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:11 pm

psoTFX wrote: Please, pack it in with this "It's all the wests fault" crap ... because plain and simple and in no uncertain terms ... it's bullcr*p. People have a choice, they can engage in peaceful discussion or non-violent protest or they can murder and maim. Terrorists, any and all terrorists take the second option.

With all due respect, I believe that these two propositions are not necessarily exclusive. It is possible for the West to have started this and for the Islamic extremists to be unusually belligerent. And the West had a choice too; it could engage in legitimate negotiations for its interests or it could prop up regimes that serve its interests, with no regard for how they conduct themselves.

I liken it to road rage. Yes, the guy who goes berserk on another driver for rudely cutting him off is overreacting, but he was rudely cut off, and the other driver is really just lucky that most drivers don't react as violently as he did. But for the other driver to say "oh no, that would have happened no matter what I did" is nonsense.
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Post by Riamus » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:45 pm

I'd have to say that the US should back out of most foreign affairs. I'd be happy if we just pulled out of everywhere and let people fend for themselves. We tend not to make people happy, no matter what we do for them, so why bother? Sure, some things we do are for our own reasons, and others are actually just to help out (of course, that helps us just by trying to get people to like us for it). But, it doesn't really matter the reason we do something somewhere else, or what it is we do... we're still thought of as meddling and power hungry and so on.

I'd like to just see us divert all our resources that are being sent out of the country into improving our own country and just let everyone else do their own thing. I'm not saying we should block organizations from helping abroad (Red Cross, for example); just that the government should stop. Why help when it's not wanted?

Everyone can go ahead and blame the US for the terrorist attacks as if they would never happen if it wasn't for us. We're blamed for everything else that happens if we're anywhere near where it happens (even if we're not really involved in it). So, it really doesn't matter if you blame us for the terrorists, too. The US is just out to ruin the rest of the world and to take it over and control it, right? People do believe that garbage. So, blame the US for everything wrong in the world and never credit them for anything they do to help out. Everything is our own fault. Anything done to us is because of what we did.

Over and over, that's what these threads do... they attack the US for doing stuff throughout the world. Some things are legitimate reasons to not like the US, but many are not. I'd be interested in seeing an **UNBIASED** chart/graph/display that shows all the good things the US has ever done around the world and compare it to all the bad things the US has ever done around the world (taking into account what would have happened without the US doing anything). I'd like to see how they compare. I'd then like to see the same type of data on all other major countries around the world. Is the US really that evil? Is it really worse than all other countries? Maybe it is, but I've not seen any real data (i.e. unbiased) to show that.

As mentioned, other countries did a lot more real controlling of countries and cultures over the years than what the US ever has done. We are just one of the only countries with the resources to "meddle" around the world today, so we're the ones targeted as being "evil".

Ok, enough of my ranting. I'm just getting tired of being blamed for every wrong in the world. As I said, we deserve some blame, but not all. And, most likely not most.
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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:55 pm

Riamus wrote: Ok, enough of my ranting. I'm just getting tired of being blamed for every wrong in the world. As I said, we deserve some blame, but not all. And, most likely not most.

And could you please point out where people blamed the US for every wrong in the world?
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Post by Riamus » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:59 pm

First, let me just say that "everything" was a purposeful exaggeration that should be seen as such. I didn't put a disclaimer on that because it seemed to be an obvious exaggeration meant to get a point across. The entire paragraph was meant at extreme exaggeration to get the point across. I obviously don't believe that everything is our fault.

This thread alone (not everyone, but some are saying it and others are agreeing with it) has blamed the US for causing terrorism in the US and in the UK; stating terrorism wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the US. It blames the US for "meddling" in the affairs of others and not caring what happens to other countries, but just trying to put up regimes for our own interests. That's just in this one thread. Other threads (most recently, the threads regarding Katrina and Al-Qaeda) have made similar comments about the US being to blame for this or for that. It just is getting rather annoying.
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Post by Kanuck » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:21 pm

quick5pnt0 wrote: These morons are doing this stuff because they are insane, pure and simple. Instead of doing something with their lives they sit around thinking of ways to kill people like the mental patients they are. If it wasnt for one thing it would be for something else. Nothing will make them happy. Saying that this is somehow americas fault is total bs.

Actually, these "morons" as you term them are religious extremists. Every religion has extremists, who typically aren't playing with a full deck of cards or have been brainwashed from an early age, brought up into a culture of hate. As previously mentioned, the KKK were terrorists too.
quick5pnt0 wrote: The reality of it is the terrorism they carry out does nothing to help them at all. It makes the world look down on their culture, and it only fires the US up to attack back. Afghanistan and Iraq would still be as they were pre-9/11 but instead because of 9/11 those countries are extremely different than what these maniacs are fighting for. Basically it just backfires on them, and the same will go if they attack los angeles.

In reality, I think the world looks down on American culture a lot more than it looks down on Iraqi or Afghani culture.

The terrorists coming from those countries are very small groups of violent extremists, and their countrymen frown upon them and the things they do. These people live fearing they could be killed by these terrorist groups at any moment, and yet it's still quite clear that they disapprove of the actions of these groups.

On the other hand you've got American "culture," where half of the country still supports the attacks on Iraq. These people refuse to recognize it is the greatest catalyst of the terrorism the government claims to be fighting. There is an almighty chip on the nation's shoulder, made evident by the "Bringing Of Democracy" to Iraq; when you force things upon people they do not want, you can expect to pay the price.

I'm not saying terrorism is right. Nobody is. But the United States is like the nerd's mom who calls the bully's mom. The bully might get a stern lecture, but he's just going to come to school beeped off the next day and beat the stuffing out of the nerd. And that's exactly what's happening here — this supposed war on terror is just the provocation these folks need to whip people into a frenzy and send them into subway cars and airplanes with bombs strapped to their chests.
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Post by the rat » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:34 pm

psoTFX wrote: Please, pack it in with this "It's all the wests fault" crap ... because plain and simple and in no uncertain terms ... it's bullcr*p. People have a choice, they can engage in peaceful discussion or non-violent protest or they can murder and maim. Terrorists, any and all terrorists take the second option.


So why do you think we have terrorists? Are they born that way? There has to be a reason and I'm interested in what you think that is.

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Post by psoTFX » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:56 pm

Darth Wong wrote:
psoTFX wrote:Please, pack it in with this "It's all the wests fault" crap ... because plain and simple and in no uncertain terms ... it's bullcr*p. People have a choice, they can engage in peaceful discussion or non-violent protest or they can murder and maim. Terrorists, any and all terrorists take the second option.

With all due respect, I believe that these two propositions are not necessarily exclusive.

huh? What does this have to do with the ability of people to make choices concerning how they deal with a situation? I'm sick and tired of hearing "The West started it", "It's those middle eastern types, always them" ... it's bullcrap, all bullcrap. This is about people choosing a path of terror rather than a path of peaceful negotiation. They could easily take the moral highground ... heck the Koran IIRC from my afternoon discussions with Muslim friends back at UCL states this as the way forward. It's got nothing to do with U.S. troops on Arabian soil ... it's about a mentality of evil ... and that mentality is hard to change, just look @ NI.[/list]

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Post by Darth Wong » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:17 pm

psoTFX wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
psoTFX wrote:Please, pack it in with this "It's all the wests fault" crap ... because plain and simple and in no uncertain terms ... it's bullcr*p. People have a choice, they can engage in peaceful discussion or non-violent protest or they can murder and maim. Terrorists, any and all terrorists take the second option.

With all due respect, I believe that these two propositions are not necessarily exclusive.

huh? What does this have to do with the ability of people to make choices concerning how they deal with a situation?

When did I ever say that the terrorists were fine, upstanding, moral people? Yes, they have chosen an unethical way of airing their grievances. That doesn't mean they have no legitimate grievances, and I don't see why anyone who points out that the roots of this conflict extend farther back than 9/11 must be accused of "blaming the US". The notion of putting all of the blame on one party (and then arguing about which party that should be) is not logical; there is plenty of blame to go around. Yes, Osama and Co. are lunatics. But no, that doesn't mean they're angry about nothing.
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The West started it", "It's those middle eastern types, always them" ... it's bullcrap, all bullcrap. This is about people choosing a path of terror rather than a path of peaceful negotiation. They could easily take the moral highground ... heck the Koran IIRC from my afternoon discussions with Muslim friends back at UCL states this as the way forward. It's got nothing to do with U.S. troops on Arabian soil ... it's about a mentality of evil ... and that mentality is hard to change, just look @ NI.

Could you explain why you feel that Al-Quaeda's actions and recruiting successes have nothing to do with American foreign-policy actions? You do not deny that those actions have occurred, or that they would irritate the people living in those regions, so basically, you're just saying that America is not to blame for the violent manner in which the terrorists chose to respond to these grievances. That is true, but the word "blame" is an emotionally loaded term that is of little value in a reasoned discussion of where and how a conflict began. It is perfectly reasonable to point out that the roots of a conflict extend well beyond the first shot being fired.
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Post by psoTFX » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:30 pm

And still you respond to text I've not written! Let me spell it out for you:

People chose their own paths

They can either:

1) Choose a path of intelligence discussion, work out their grievances ... it may take years, it often does ... but it can be achieved,
2) Choose a path of hate and destruction ... a path that typically gets everyone nowhere and which every single religion on this fine blue planet of ours detests.

Screw U.S. policy, screw British/French/Belgian/Russian meddling in their former Empires, screw the Wests desire to see democracy. None of this gives anyone a legitimate reason to choose route 2.

Am I making myself clear yet?

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