Mozilla Firefox surpasses 100M downloads.. What now?

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Kail
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Post by Kail »

Good post Wong!

And better yet, you have total insight in an open source product. If you wanted to you could download the source code and recompile it knowing exactly what code was running. IE and its closed code raises several privacy concerns.

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Post by alcaeus »

Kail wrote: And better yet, you have total insight in an open source product. If you wanted to you could download the source code and recompile it knowing exactly what code was running. IE and its closed code raises several privacy concerns.

As said...a developer might care, but the average Joe just doesn't, because he doesn't even know what to do with the source code. Remember, the main market are not computer "experts", but merely average people who just use a computer to read their emails and maybe check the scores of their favorite NFL team.

@Wong: If FF had 99.9% market share, it might not have similar problems like IE did, but you'd see similar things happening like when IE/Microsoft had that huge market share. They might claim that browser domination is not their prominent goal, but then why bother with the whole "spread Firefox" crap? If they just wanted to have another browser on the market, they would simply advertise it like any other product, and not with slogans like "use Firefox instead of IE". Trust me, nobody knows what will happen if Firefox had 99.9% market share (not that I think it ever would, but whatever, hopes die last), but IMO there will be certain problems. Whenever a program/company/corporation/foundation has a certain market share, that's not good for the consumer anymore.

Just another example of what's just happening. More and more people rely on Wikipedia. Yes, lots of information is correct, but there's also information that is wrong (correcting it didn't help, that person just reverted the changes). If everybody just used Wikipedia instead of other encyclopedias, we'd have a similar problem with high market share: people don't see alternatives, and in the examples of Wikipedia, there's no way to check if the information is correct, because there's nothing besides the Wiki. It may seem far from the browser issue, but in the end, it's the same problem, it just looks different.

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Post by Darth Wong »

alcaeus wrote: @Wong: If FF had 99.9% market share, it might not have similar problems like IE did, but you'd see similar things happening like when IE/Microsoft had that huge market share.

No, you wouldn't. Microsoft uses proprietary formats and protocols to achieve what's known as "vendor lock-in". Firefox would be incapable of doing that because it's open-source and does not use proprietary formats and protocols. Microsoft also uses dominance in one market to cement dominance in another: this is known as "vertical foreclosure". For example, it uses its dominance in Office software to freeze out Linux, just as it uses ActiveX to do the same (not to mention using proprietary formats in Office documents to freeze out competing office suites; even the best converter can't achieve 100% compatibility with Office Word document formats for example). Once again, this is not possible for Firefox because it's multi-platform and even if it wasn't, some enterprising individual or group could make a port because the source code is available.
They might claim that browser domination is not their prominent goal, but then why bother with the whole "spread Firefox" crap?

They never claimed that browser domination is not their goal. The point we're making is that anti-competitive practices are not their goal. Please try to stick to the arguments which are actually being made.
If they just wanted to have another browser on the market, they would simply advertise it like any other product, and not with slogans like "use Firefox instead of IE". Trust me, nobody knows what will happen if Firefox had 99.9% market share (not that I think it ever would, but whatever, hopes die last), but IMO there will be certain problems.

Such as?
Whenever a program/company/corporation/foundation has a certain market share, that's not good for the consumer anymore.

For the second time, you don't seem to understand why monopolies are usually bad, and unless you understand why, you won't understand why those reasons don't apply to an open-source product.
Just another example of what's just happening. More and more people rely on Wikipedia. Yes, lots of information is correct, but there's also information that is wrong (correcting it didn't help, that person just reverted the changes). If everybody just used Wikipedia instead of other encyclopedias, we'd have a similar problem with high market share: people don't see alternatives, and in the examples of Wikipedia, there's no way to check if the information is correct, because there's nothing besides the Wiki. It may seem far from the browser issue, but in the end, it's the same problem, it just looks different.

No, it is not even remotely similar to the problem of Microsoft/IE market dominance with vertical foreclosure and vendor lock-in. Not on any level, in any dimension. People can effortlessly switch from Wiki to something else if they choose to.
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Post by The Techboy »

I have a few things to say about this thread.

First off - there is nothing wrong with having your favourite browser but it isnt a goddamn cult - "EVERYBODY MUST JOIN USSSSSSSssss".. sure.

Second, how can anybody who has a skill in computing make any MONEY (which is what matters in the REAL WORLD) if open source "takes over"? Really. And don't say, "charge for the software," because it's open source and you can guess what'd happen next, can't you.
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Post by FF8Jake` »

Dear alcaeus,

My homeland, the Grand Colony of Intarweb, is currently in a state of chaos. The king has assigned lords over this whole domain. Currently, 2 of the lords (Lord I. Explorat and Lord Gecko frequently known as the "Fox of Fire") have the most control. Lord Gecko respects the standards King William the 3rd (or as some of us fellows call him, Ole` W3) and all is peaceful in his realm. Lord I. Explorat doesn't follow the king's standards and must be stopped, but unfortunately he owns 90% of the Colony. Thus, it is up to the Fox of Fire and his "Spreaders of the Seed" to bring justice into the land.

Praying that this clue reaches you,
Sincerely, FF8Jake
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Post by The Techboy »

FF8Jake` wrote: Dear alcaeus,

My homeland, the Grand Colony of Intarweb, is currently in a state of chaos. The king has assigned lords over this whole domain. Currently, 2 of the lords (Lord I. Explorat and Lord Gecko frequently known as the "Fox of Fire") have the most control. Lord Gecko respects the standards King William the 3rd (or as some of us fellows call him, Ole` W3) and all is peaceful in his realm. Lord I. Explorat doesn't follow the king's standards and must be stopped, but unfortunately he owns 90% of the Colony. Thus, it is up to the Fox of Fire and his "Spreaders of the Seed" to bring justice into the land.

Praying that this clue reaches you,
Sincerely, FF8Jake
Okay, wait, see my above post. People are getting really stupid and trying to be funny but failing horribly (and just looking stupid in the process) by trying to get EVERYBODY to use firefox. You don't run a damn cult here.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Techboy wrote: I have a few things to say about this thread.

First off - there is nothing wrong with having your favourite browser but it isnt a goddamn cult - "EVERYBODY MUST JOIN USSSSSSSssss".. sure.

I don't recall anyone trying to coerce anybody else to join this "cult"; people are only recommending it to others. Are you suggesting that anyone who recommends things to others is a cultist now?
Second, how can anybody who has a skill in computing make any MONEY (which is what matters in the REAL WORLD) if open source "takes over"? Really. And don't say, "charge for the software," because it's open source and you can guess what'd happen next, can't you.

People wouldn't make any money on web browsers if Firefox "takes over". Why does that mean the entire computer industry would necessarily go open-source? There are certain kinds of "infrastructural" software which should ideally be open-source because they are the nexus of too many interdependencies to be controlled by a single company. But other kinds of software are a different matter.
Okay, wait, see my above post. People are getting really stupid and trying to be funny but failing horribly (and just looking stupid in the process) by trying to get EVERYBODY to use firefox. You don't run a damn cult here.

If you're going to accuse people of being "stupid" (and thus risk running afoul of our rules), you should present a better argument than misrepresenting the argument as some kind of bizarre religious cult, and hence failing to bother addressing any of its key points. You are employing the "guilt by association" debate technique in order to smear the argument without addressing any of its points by associating it with weird cults, but that technique is manifestly dishonest and does not refute anything.
Last edited by Darth Wong on Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MHobbit »

The Techboy wrote: Okay, wait, see my above post. People are getting really stupid and trying to be funny but failing horribly (and just looking stupid in the process) by trying to get EVERYBODY to use firefox. You don't run a damn cult here.


Not all of us [blindly (when this occurs)] spread FireFox... there are some of us who are trying to drive people away from IE, and FireFox is one of the best alternatives out there (some people say browsers like Opera are better, but it's down to user preference).
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Post by The Techboy »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Techboy wrote:I have a few things to say about this thread.

First off - there is nothing wrong with having your favourite browser but it isnt a goddamn cult - "EVERYBODY MUST JOIN USSSSSSSssss".. sure.

I don't recall anyone trying to coerce anybody else to join this "cult"; people are only recommending it to others. Are you suggesting that anyone who recommends things to others is a cultist now?
Second, how can anybody who has a skill in computing make any MONEY (which is what matters in the REAL WORLD) if open source "takes over"? Really. And don't say, "charge for the software," because it's open source and you can guess what'd happen next, can't you.

People wouldn't make any money on web browsers if Firefox "takes over". Why does that mean the entire computer industry would necessarily go open-source? There are certain kinds of "infrastructural" software which should ideally be open-source because they are the nexus of too many interdependencies to be controlled by a single company. But other kinds of software are a different matter.
Okay, wait, see my above post. People are getting really stupid and trying to be funny but failing horribly (and just looking stupid in the process) by trying to get EVERYBODY to use firefox. You don't run a damn cult here.

If you're going to accuse people of being "stupid" (and thus risk running afoul of our rules), you should present a better argument than misrepresenting the argument as some kind of bizarre religious cult, and hence failing to bother addressing any of its key points. You are employing the "guilt by association" debate technique in order to smear the argument without addressing any of its points by associating it with weird cults, but that technique is manifestly dishonest and does not refute anything.
I am using cult as a comparative. It's the way everybody wants people to use firefox. As in, ignore everything else, pick us!

The point about open source software was referring to OSS in general rather than firefox. It's a related aside. There are the same people saying, "paying is bad, use open source," which is really quite silly considering they're probably the sort of person who'll be looking for a job to make money in computing, and possible already have one.

@MennoniteHobbit: I didn't say "all of you." I said "people."

I use firefox myself, but I do not attempt to get everybody to be like me and do the same.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Techboy wrote: I am using cult as a comparative. It's the way everybody wants people to use firefox. As in, ignore everything else, pick us!

Yes, it's incredibly odd that people who have a favourite product will reveal this opinion to others.
The point about open source software was referring to OSS in general rather than firefox. It's a related aside. There are the same people saying, "paying is bad, use open source," which is really quite silly considering they're probably the sort of person who'll be looking for a job to make money in computing, and possible already have one.

Yes, IBM must truly be fools for making all that money pushing Linux.
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Post by Yawner »

There is one sure fire reason i spread firefox, its security, i get calls from friends saying they need me to fix their computers of spyware, i boot up their pc's and run a few basic scans, Ad-Aware, AVG and SpyBot S&D.. Comes up usually with Hundreds or Thousands of items, once I clear it up I install firefox, put in a few plugins for them and no-one who I have helped int he past has called me back, bliss..

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Post by FF8Jake` »

The Techboy,

It's not often someone is clever enough to uncover our true identity. I commend you for your excellent mystery solving skills.

But, as someone said earlier, we don't just push Firefox because it's a good browser, we push it because Internet Explorer sucks. It's just the awesome feeling of knowing you made the net a better place by jerking one more person out of the darkness of microsoft stupidity, and having that person be grateful to you for doing so. Much like unto someone converting a user of some crappy forum software over to phpbb. It's sad to see people use inferior products, and it's not nice to not alert them of a better way.

And last but certainly not least, you and the few others who don't like spreading firefox are few in number. Perhaps you should have yourself evaluated, to ensure there isn't something different about the few of you who hate hearing about good things. Is something so much better a bad thing to spread to the masses, and is it wrong just because a couple emotional people "don't want to have it shoved in their faces". Yes, forcefully appearing on their computer monitor as mechanical grippers hold their eyes open. In a way, I almost feel pity on those who can't hit the X button and run away from our Firefox propaganda. Oh wait...
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Post by sony1 »

Speaks for itself big time. A realy great fast lean and mean browser.
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Post by rick` »

IMO if people are truely 'pushing people away from Internext Explorer' then they shouldn't make it out like FireFox is the only alternative browser they can use :P

Otherwise it gets to the point of being 'FireFox is better than everything else' which I've seen more than enough of on other forums :-?
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Post by Kail »

Well Google has taken a rather radical stand and is now directly supporting Firefox through their new Adsense Referrals program, read here:

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/node/19678
Google Announces Firefox AdSense Referral Program
Posted by asa on Tue, 11/08/2005 - 17:27Spreading Firefox

Spread Firefox welcomes a new teammate in helping to us spread the word about Firefox -- Google. This morning Google announced a new feature for their Adsense program called AdSense Referrals.

This feature gives AdSense publishers the opportunity to recommend a product they believe would be useful to their site visitors while earning additional revenue at the same time. Publishers get paid for referring new AdSense customers but more importantly (to us,) it allows AdSense publishers to earn revenue by recommending Firefox to their visitors.

Google will be providing a set of buttons for AdSense Referral publishers encouraging viewers to download "Firefox with the Google Toolbar." AdSense Referrals will pay up to $1 per conversion -- a conversion occurs when someone successfully installs Firefox with the Google Toolbar.

We're very excited about this program and hope to see more similar programs available to web publishers in the future. (If you're interested in launching a similar program, please contact partners@mozilla.com.)

- Asa

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