Is it wrong to download?

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jhecht
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Post by jhecht » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:55 am

How to say this... Ah.

I have no problem with downloading, and i will explain why.

See corporations everywhere seem to think its ok to take away the freedoms given to human beings by taxing and/or wanting to collect profit on every single asset of life that we have, which includes music. So i see downloading music as way to very silently get back at them.

Also, i have no problems with musicians who put their albums for sale online for below $10, but things like iTunes that cost the same to buy an album online as they do in real life, i don't see a valid point in that. an album costs that much in the stores because they have to pay for album artwork print, cd cases, etc etc... but online? what the heck do you have to pay for online other than putting the song up? i don't see it.

However i must agree that some peopl ehave gone a little too far in redistributing unlocked versions of paid software, like limewire pro and such. Honestly, every REAL music artists i've ever talked to has no problem with their music being pirated, almost all of them say "if thats what it takes for people to hear me, then thats what it takes.", its just the corporations that seem to have issues with it.

As i said before, i have no problem with it.
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Post by GeorgiePorgie » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:33 am

jhecht wrote: I have no problem with downloading, and i will explain why.

See corporations everywhere seem to think its ok to take away the freedoms given to human beings by taxing and/or wanting to collect profit on every single asset of life that we have, which includes music. So i see downloading music as way to very silently get back at them.


But who exactly are you getting back at?

More fallout from the practice of acquiring copyrighted music in an illegal manner...

Today, in the USA, we learned that legit webcast stations are about to receive a crushing increase in royalty rates...

Webcast Royalty Rate Decision Announced
The Copyright Royalty Board (CRB) has announced its decision on Internet radio royalty rates, rejecting all of the arguments made by Webcasters and instead adopting the "per play" rate proposal put forth by SoundExchange (a digital music fee collection body created by the RIAA).


Two articles about it (I've shortened the text for these links, but they will take you to directly to the articles rather than to the home pages):

www.kurthanson.com

www.broadcastlawblog.com

In today's royalty rate decision, the board offered no compromise between the wants of the webcaster and the wants of the recording industry. The royalty board is giving the recording industry everything that they asked for, period. :evil:

According to the recording industry's lawyers, the practices of illegal downloading of copyrighted music and illegally "stream ripping" copyrighted music from internet streams are adversely affecting their business... and they believe those "threats" entitle them to get their way in royalty negotiations.

I'm far from convinced by their argument, but today the US Copyright Royalty Board was convinced and gave them what they wanted. Who suffers from this royalty ruling today? Illegal downloaders? No. The recording industry? No. The USA legit licensed users of the copyrighted music will suffer, because they'll now pay substantially higher fees.
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Post by geocator » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:45 am

jhecht wrote: See corporations everywhere seem to think its ok to take away the freedoms given to human beings by taxing and/or wanting to collect profit on every single asset of life that we have, which includes music. So i see downloading music as way to very silently get back at them.


The corporations are evil so screw them. 8O What a joke. First off corporations do not tax you, governments do, if you don't like the tax you can elect new officials or move. Secondly, of course a company wants to make a profit. Would you go to work for free? No, because your time and talents have value, and you require money to continue your lifestyle. If you think a company is screwing you, then write an article, boycott them, whatever, but infringing on there rights is not the way to get your point across.
jhecht wrote: Also, i have no problems with musicians who put their albums for sale online for below $10, but things like iTunes that cost the same to buy an album online as they do in real life, i don't see a valid point in that. an album costs that much in the stores because they have to pay for album artwork print, cd cases, etc etc... but online? what the heck do you have to pay for online other than putting the song up? i don't see it.

The main cost of producing music is in the producing of music. The disc costs pennies, the printed material costs pennies. You are paying for the talents and time of all those producing the music.

I completely understand that people feel screwed by the prices of some of this stuff, but in the end they choose the price they want, you don't like don't use it.

webcritters
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it's ok to download songs

Post by webcritters » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:45 am

As far as music is concerned I think it's ok to download songs so long as you don't make a 100 illegal copies and sell them. For me I like to download an album and to see if it's any good. If it's good, I will buy the cd, as mp3 quality to me, sucks.
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eyko
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Ethically or legally?

Post by eyko » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:27 am

It depends on what you mean by bad: is it unethical? or, is it illegal?

First: Is it illegal? That entirely depends on the law(s) in your country, jurisdiction, or whatever. For example, in my country (Spain) it is perfectly legal to share music, and downloading is a form of file sharing. You don't need the artist's permission to share his work, to make personal copies of it, or tamper with the support you bought it in. Any licensing that prohibits the legal rights of the citizen is invalidated, so there is no questioning that.

For example, I buy a CD, but I happen to own an mp3 player and I'm also an freak and like to experiment converting to other formats (vinyl, tape, etc) to compare quality or whatever reasons I may have for doing so... The law is on my side, since once I have bought the Audio CD, I can make any kind of copy of it, tamper with it, as long as it is for personal use, that is, no profit (selling derivative work). Now by law I'm free to convert that audio CD to mp3, vorbis, flac, etc... and I'm also allowed to share with friends my properties. I cannot, however, sell my copy to a friend if the copyright forbids it, since there is a profit there. But nobody stops me from lending my copies to friends, it's been done since the stone age, if we could say... (i guess they shared hunting tools?)

Since P2P is a form of sharing, and I'm not making any monetary profit (which is what the artist would loose), P2P is then perfectly legal in our legal system. The only problem is selling "pirated" copies. I quote pirated because the term is a little bit misleading, as it sometimes includes laymen who download music, movies, etc. while this is not so (at least not so correctly).

Secondly: is it ethical? You should decide for yourself, as ethics is not universal and depends much on culture, beliefs, and in general our values and such. Last I heard, sharing was a good thing, I believe it still is, regardless what the record industry wants to make us believe.

For me, downloading is perfectly OK, and is in fact a good testimony of the individual in our society ^^

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Post by blaze416 » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:37 pm

i download music to see if its worth buying. i will always support real artists. none of this crap that gets tossed togeather just for the sake of riding of the last good cd that they put out. if after i download it and find that it is worth buying i still dont go to walmart or best buy or any of those cd places. since most of what i listen to is underground mucic i will go straight to the artist website and buy it from them. thats 15 or 20 bucks that go straight to them. not for best buy to take a cut and then the major label to take their cut. just straight to the artists

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Post by Ska4Christ » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:52 pm

jhecht wrote: See corporations everywhere seem to think its ok to take away the freedoms given to human beings by taxing and/or wanting to collect profit on every single asset of life that we have, which includes music. So i see downloading music as way to very silently get back at them.


Think of it under Nozickian Social Contract Theory...
  • The artist naturally owns their labor, and they are using raw materials (abstract ones such as notes, and purchased materials like instruments) to create a product (music). The artist naturally owns their music, this is the principle of acquisition. They have acquired a brand new piece of property.
  • The companies have bought these rights from the artist via a contract. As long as this is done voluntarily, the company now owns the product. This is the principle of transfer. The company owns the rights to the music which were voluntarily transferred to them via the contract. They are fully able to claim any and every thing that those rights entail.
  • There is no wrongdoing here, the companies are within their rights. If you don't like them owning music, you should tell artists not to sign with them. In which case, the artists can burn their own cd's and put them in little clear cases and use magic marker to scribble their name across the front. If the artist is technologically savvy, they might even open up a page to let you download their music. Nobody is forcing them to sign contracts with these companies, but they percieve the benefits to themselves as being worth selling the rights to their music.

jhecht wrote: However i must agree that some peopl ehave gone a little too far in redistributing unlocked versions of paid software, like limewire pro and such. Honestly, every REAL music artists i've ever talked to has no problem with their music being pirated, almost all of them say "if thats what it takes for people to hear me, then thats what it takes.", its just the corporations that seem to have issues with it.

As i said before, i have no problem with it.


This has always been a funny example to me. People sharing LimeWire Pro. LimeWire is allowing people to trade other copyrighted content. (I know, you have to click the little button that says "I don't intent to use this to distribute..." Hardy har har...) Heck, I personally know one web-designer who has downloaded thousands of dollars worth of Adobe and (formerly) Macromedia software all via LimeWire. (This is just an example; there are probably thousands more doing the same thing.) So I see LimeWire as suffering from their own system, it's quite ironic really. I don't see how you can use this as an example of file-sharing going too far.
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Post by eyko » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:55 am

Ska4Christ wrote: Think of it under Nozickian Social Contract Theory...
  • The artist naturally owns their labor, and they are using raw materials (abstract ones such as notes, and purchased materials like instruments) to create a product (music). The artist naturally owns their music, this is the principle of acquisition. They have acquired a brand new piece of property.
  • The companies have bought these rights from the artist via a contract. As long as this is done voluntarily, the company now owns the product. This is the principle of transfer. The company owns the rights to the music which were voluntarily transferred to them via the contract. They are fully able to claim any and every thing that those rights entail.
  • There is no wrongdoing here, the companies are within their rights. If you don't like them owning music, you should tell artists not to sign with them. In which case, the artists can burn their own cd's and put them in little clear cases and use magic marker to scribble their name across the front. If the artist is technologically savvy, they might even open up a page to let you download their music. Nobody is forcing them to sign contracts with these companies, but they percieve the benefits to themselves as being worth selling the rights to their music.


That's as incorrect as the intellectual property lie. We don't always fully own what we create but just a part of it: our part. We are not sole authors and architects of our intellectual works, we share with our society and our culture that authorship. Do you actually think that U2's sound could have come about only through their creative ability? No, they have listened to _other_ artists, learned from other musical styles, and over time they've assimilated other musical cultures (electronic sounds, rock, urban...). It all adds up to make up who they are: input generates output, and that input also has an author. In the end the author of every aspect of culture is society as a whole, speaking in general terms.

Secondly, a contract is only a paper, with legal standing, but of limited field of influence. It is foolish to think that with a contract, for example, I can buy a person's freedom and make it a slave, because there are inherent rights that supersede most contracts. Take for example sexual slavery, child labor, etc. Likewise, a record label may make you sign a contract, but if you were to take it to a court of law, chances are it would be nullified given you present a good defense of your position.

Culture cannot be copyrighted. Artists must live with it. Also, the industry must change, change is inevitable (progress is optional). They weren't here in the 19th century, and now in the 21st century they're likely to fade away, if we stand on our ground (consumers, artists alike). The only thing perpetrating their dominion and influence is that we don't move our asses to do anything, but they're not gods or anything like that, they're totally fight-able, and win-able, IMHO.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by rayminator » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:57 am

it all depends on what you are planning to with the stuff that you download

for personal use (fine)

for coping and selling it for money (not fine)

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Fletch79 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:52 pm

To the guys who say downloading is wrong ... Your telling me everything you own and do is 100% Legit??

You don;t have downloaded Music
You have never saved a picture
you have never lent a cd to your mate, who you knew was going to copy it
you have never made more than one copy of an album you own
you have never taped something from the tv and lent it to someone else (i beleive this is illegal in the UK)
Every bit off sofware you own is legal .. you have paid your money after the 30 day trial is over even if the software has kept on working! (winrar is the only one i can think off offhand that does that)

There are loads of examples, and i seriously doubt you are all as spotless as you would like us all to believe!!

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by geocator » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:57 pm

Fletch79 wrote: To the guys who say downloading is wrong ... Your telling me everything you own and do is 100% Legit??

You don;t have downloaded Music
You have never saved a picture
you have never lent a cd to your mate, who you knew was going to copy it
you have never made more than one copy of an album you own
you have never taped something from the tv and lent it to someone else (i beleive this is illegal in the UK)
Every bit off sofware you own is legal .. you have paid your money after the 30 day trial is over even if the software has kept on working! (winrar is the only one i can think off offhand that does that)

There are loads of examples, and i seriously doubt you are all as spotless as you would like us all to believe!!


Absolutely, and I go the speed limit too. Why is that hard to beilive. There are people who follow the law.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by AdamR » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:02 pm

Fletch79 wrote: You don;t have downloaded Music
The only time I have done so was to preview the album. It wasn't on my machine for longer than a week after that until I purchased the CD. Yes, everything on my machine is legal.
You have never saved a picture
This typically falls under fair-use policy, at least in the US. Taking that work and reproducing it elsewhere publicly is different.
you have never lent a cd to your mate, who you knew was going to copy it
Nope.
you have never made more than one copy of an album you own
Nope. Why should I need more than one backup copy at a time?
you have never taped something from the tv and lent it to someone else (i beleive this is illegal in the UK)
Nope.
Every bit off sofware you own is legal .. you have paid your money after the 30 day trial is over even if the software has kept on working! (winrar is the only one i can think off offhand that does that)
Actually, no. There a pretty much free and open-source versions for everything. If I want something which is better, I'll pay for it. Simple as that. Example: UEStudio '06. I've never come across anything better. I actually have respect for the hours of work that went into coding the application.

Also, just because everyone does it doesn't make it legal or ethical.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by complexity » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:19 am

The only time I have done so was to preview the album. It wasn't on my machine for longer than a week after that until I purchased the CD. Yes, everything on my machine is legal.


One might contend that you used illegal methods and cost someone potential money, if you didn't buy the album after.

I think people in general download illegally for entertainment that wouldn't have been previously available to them.

Of course, this could be confused with greed.

One thing is for certain, if the world had a more balanced economy, piracy wouldn't barely exist.

Than again I'm a capitalist!

The entire moral argument shouldn't even be discussed considering everyone has different morals based upon religion, culture, and background.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by AdamR » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:24 pm

complexity wrote: One might contend that you used illegal methods and cost someone potential money, if you didn't buy the album after.


If I don't buy the CD then I don't keep it on my computer. Simple as that. If the whole point of downloading it in the first place was to find out if I liked it or not, why would I want to take up HDD space with something I don't like and will never listen to again?

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Drunky » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:28 pm

AdamR wrote:
complexity wrote: One might contend that you used illegal methods and cost someone potential money, if you didn't buy the album after.


If I don't buy the CD then I don't keep it on my computer. Simple as that. If the whole point of downloading it in the first place was to find out if I liked it or not, why would I want to take up HDD space with something I don't like and will never listen to again?

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Then there are the people who would download it and keep it because they like it.

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