Is it wrong to download?

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karlsemple
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by karlsemple » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:21 pm

AdamR wrote:
karlsemple wrote: can you reach and touch the information on a CD?? or a DVD? No course you cant, you are touching the material it is stored on


That's a logical fallacy. By touching something that is able to be stored, you are in fact touching something physical. I can store my car in my garage. I can store a hand-carved wooden statue on a shelf. As I said before, no matter how arbitrary, data, in no matter what form, is still physical.


Which is pretty much what I said 8O
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by AdamR » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:44 pm

karlsemple wrote: Which is pretty much what I said 8O


I gathered from what you were saying that I was touching the garage (CD/DVD/HDD), not the car itself. Am I misunderstanding you? I'm implying that you can touch the car (microscopic grooves/electronic configuration).

I'll state this again, however: the ease of which you are able to copy said physical data is irrelevant. The issue is whether or not the artist should be monetarily compensated for their work.

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karlsemple
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by karlsemple » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:03 pm

AdamR wrote:
karlsemple wrote: Which is pretty much what I said 8O


I gathered from what you were saying that I was touching the garage, not the car itself. Am I misunderstanding?

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No, I was saying that when you steal a DVD or a CD you are stealing the media/container which holds the data and thus something physical. My point was that when you download illegal stuff you are still transferring that to a solid physical object, i.e your hardrive or CDR. The earlier users argument that is is not the same is flawed, there argument would be like stealing a car and parking it in your own garage and saying it is not stolen as you didn't steal the garage it is in. Stealing is stealing, even if the item is left in the street, not handing it in is still classed as stealing if you pick it up and walk off with it.

The flip side of course and this is probably the earlier users point is that at a point in the download process the data you are downloading is passed over the internet in the public domain and on no-ones hard drive. At this point you could argue that taking this data would be like listening to some one read a book and writing down what they are saying, eventually you would have a copy of the book, would you have then stolen the book? Of course this is a flawed argument and why each country has specific copyright laws to prevent such silly arguments as a defence.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Gud » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:23 pm

karlsemple wrote: What if you were trying to sell your car and your neighbour was cloning it and giving the clone away to every person who came to look at your motor for sale?


If people can have it for free, why should I be able to stop them?

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Post by WWE_fan_of_knoxville » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:34 pm

I think if you take the risk to take in mind about hackers. I guess yes.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by AdamR » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:57 pm

Gud wrote: If people can have it for free, why should I be able to stop them?


Oh, and what if I was able to take a peak at your credit card number (for free, mind you. I didn't spend any money to use my eyes), you'd have no hesitation of letting me use it anywhere I want? I'm able to get this "information" for perfectly free. I'm able to sneak into a theater or a concert without paying. I'm able to "steal" bandwidth from my neighbor. I'm able to tap into his cable TV. I'm also able to make a clone[/b] of your house key.

My point is that property is property. Rights are rights. Ownership is ownership. It doesn't matter for crap whether or not someone is able to get access to it for free. On that note, you still didn't answer my question: are not the respected artists subject to monetary compensation for their work?

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:15 am

I have said this before... just because something is easy to do (download copyrighted works) it does not become legal, much less your right to do so.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Drunky » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:12 am

karlsemple wrote:
Drunky wrote:
AdamR wrote:
Drunky wrote: Stealing something physically and downloading something online are two completly different things.


The last I checked, digital information is just as physical as anything else.
Drunky wrote: Actually I was thinking of something really rare and not necessarily because the copyright owners decided not to sell it anymore. Say its out of print and you can't find it anywhere. Even if you search to buy it online what about then?


Music doesn't magically disappear off of the market without the artist knowing about it. Thus by not pushing for at least some form of availability they are in effect not selling it anymore.

- Adam


Can you reach out and touch digital information?


can you reach and touch the information on a CD?? or a DVD? No course you cant, you are touching the material it is stored on, in the case of illegal downloads the hard drive is the media rather than the Cd or DVd for example and thus it is still stealing and the same as shoplifting something from a shop :)


Actually it isn't the same. If you steal something from a shop then they don't have it anymore and lose money from shrink. If you download something the store still has it. So it isn't the same as shoplifting.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:06 pm

Room121 wrote: As far as getting software for free... if it's $600 adobe programs, and al the other $1000 programs... I think it's okay to use it for free, but pay for it when you can (if ever)

Why should the relative cost of something be a factor? It's like saying, well, I can pay for a candybar at the store, so I will, but since I can't afford the t-bone steak I will just take that.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Gud » Tue May 01, 2007 11:05 am

AdamR wrote:
Gud wrote: If people can have it for free, why should I be able to stop them?


Oh, and what if I was able to take a peak at your credit card number (for free, mind you. I didn't spend any money to use my eyes), you'd have no hesitation of letting me use it anywhere I want? I'm able to get this "information" for perfectly free. I'm able to sneak into a theater or a concert without paying. I'm able to "steal" bandwidth from my neighbor. I'm able to tap into his cable TV. I'm also able to make a clone of your house key.


Yes, and the difference here would be that I am losing something. If I download something from the net, no one has lost anything. You can not lose a potential sale because you didn't have it to begin with.
AdamR wrote: My point is that property is property. Rights are rights. Ownership is ownership.


Yes, and copyrights are not property.
AdamR wrote: On that note, you still didn't answer my question: are not the respected artists subject to monetary compensation for their work?

I don't know.

In a couple of years we won't be having this discussion anymore thanks to Steve Jobs and Apple. 8)

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun » Tue May 01, 2007 3:02 pm

Gud wrote: Yes, and the difference here would be that I am losing something. If I download something from the net, no one has lost anything. You can not lose a potential sale because you didn't have it to begin with.

This is just ... wrong, and I don't know why it's so hard to see.

You say there is no intention to buy the item? Then there can be no intention to possess that item either. You cannot possess without a transaction. When the owner of said property has place a value (price) on that transaction and you ignore it, it does not matter if the owner of that item has lost physical or digital property, there is still a loss.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Drunky » Thu May 03, 2007 1:11 am

drathbun wrote:
Gud wrote: Yes, and the difference here would be that I am losing something. If I download something from the net, no one has lost anything. You can not lose a potential sale because you didn't have it to begin with.

This is just ... wrong, and I don't know why it's so hard to see.

You say there is no intention to buy the item? Then there can be no intention to possess that item either. You cannot possess without a transaction. When the owner of said property has place a value (price) on that transaction and you ignore it, it does not matter if the owner of that item has lost physical or digital property, there is still a loss.



There actually isn't a lost. As I said there would be shrink from the product being shoplifted but not if it was downloaded. If somebody downloads the item who never intended on buying it in the first place then the owner of the shop and the creator of the product wouldn't lose anything.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun » Thu May 03, 2007 4:06 pm

Drunky wrote: There actually isn't a lost. As I said there would be shrink from the product being shoplifted but not if it was downloaded. If somebody downloads the item who never intended on buying it in the first place then the owner of the shop and the creator of the product wouldn't lose anything.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry, as this will sound quite blunt, but I cannot possibly agree with this statement, no matter how many times it has been written in this topic, with various levels of justification.

There may be no physical loss. I will grant you that. But there is intellectual property that is being taken without compensation.

If someone builds something that can be distributed digitally (be it software, music, movie, whatever you like) and elects to put it on the web for free, they have decided to share their property at no cost. Download it all you want. But if someone builds something and they decide to charge for it, and you download it (illegally) for free, then there is a loss. You have taken the decision away from the person that owns the material. There is no physical inventory shrinkage. But there is still a loss.

Saying you never intended to buy it in the first place does not change that. If you don't intend to pay for it, then you have no right to the product.
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by laszlo2000 » Fri May 04, 2007 8:35 am

In a perfect world art would be free of charge and shared.... and if something brought you joy and happiness then you would support the artist. Not the other way around...
I don't think downloading music is a terrible crime punishable by heavy fines ... after all, all you did is listened to it..... hey what sort of a crime is this?........
Only stealing intellectual property and reselling it as if it was yours or using it to make a profit is a crime. And this goes for computer software too....
But this isn't a perfect world.... so we have the law.... the law is there to protect the people ... especially the rich people..... :D

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Gud » Fri May 04, 2007 10:17 am

drathbun wrote: Download it all you want. But if someone builds something and they decide to charge for it, and you download it (illegally) for free, then there is a loss. You have taken the decision away from the person that owns the material. There is no physical inventory shrinkage. But there is still a loss.


You keep saying they have lost something. What exactly is it that they have lost?

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