Is it wrong to download?

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Lastof
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Lastof »

Their livelyhood. How much time do you think that they spent writing that song/film/program, recording it. You think that it didn't cost them money to do? Or, that they got fed for free then?

The artists need money to live, and the labels, however evil they may be, need to be able to produce it, advertise it. Oh, and if your response is "But, the artist hardly get any of the money. The labels only give them a pittance." You know the difference between an pittance and nothing? It's something. And a 100, a 1000 somethings, add up. If you all bought it, then you might get to enjoy another album six months lader. If you don't, they might not be able to afford to produce it.

At the least, you should buy it to show them that people DO like it, so that they continue to produce it and similar things, that you will also like.
Last edited by Lastof on 04 May 2011, 00:00, edited -1 times in total
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drathbun
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun »

Gud wrote:
drathbun wrote: Download it all you want. But if someone builds something and they decide to charge for it, and you download it (illegally) for free, then there is a loss. You have taken the decision away from the person that owns the material. There is no physical inventory shrinkage. But there is still a loss.


You keep saying they have lost something. What exactly is it that they have lost?

They have lost the right to control how their creation is distributed.

Let's take an example of a musical group named the phpBB Group. :-P This group creates a song, and they elect to put it on the internet. The group, not you or I, has the right to do that, as the creator of that musical work. It was their choice.

Now suppose that another group called IBP ;-) decides to charge for their work. So the only way to obtain it (legally) is to purchase it from a store. Someone does that, rips the music, and posts it. People download it. Is there a physical loss of property? No. But those who downloaded the music took away the choice from the rightful owner of that property. Did those people intend to buy the music from IBP? It's not relevant. Whether they intended to buy it or not, they did not go through the distribution channel seleted by IBP. The took away that choice, the right to the creator(s) of the song.

You can make the same argument with photographs, movies, or any other work that can now be easily digitized and distributed, with or without the consent of the rightful owner / creator of that work.
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Anon
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Anon »

AdamR wrote:
karlsemple wrote: can you reach and touch the information on a CD?? or a DVD? No course you cant, you are touching the material it is stored on


That's a logical fallacy. By touching something that is able to be stored, you are in fact touching something physical. I can store my car in my garage. I can store a hand-carved wooden statue on a shelf. As I said before, no matter how arbitrary, data, in no matter what form, is still physical.


I have a shelf. It has a Bertie on it. I have a hard drive. It has mac.osx.1.4.8.cracked.dvd.english.iso on it.
I can touch the shelf. I can touch the hard drive
I can touch the bertie. It is physical. If someone comes along and steals it, I no longer have it, and must cry myself to sleep at night due to the trauma of the loss. I cannot touch the ISO file. If someone comes along and pirates it, I still have my copy, and can sleep better knowing I still have that.

Comparing theft to copyright infringement does not work™
They have lost the right to control how their creation is distributed


No they haven't. They still have all the rights as normal. All they have "lost" is the ability to prevent unauthorised copying and subsequent redistribution of that particular copy. Minor point yes, but in an argument like this one the wording of an argument may well make or break it ;)

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Shanny »

OK I logged in, typed all of this out, took a while to type, hit submit, was asked to log in again, clicked "back" and my post was lost!!! grrrrr should have clicked the link "return to the previous page" I guess, lol.

OK now that I'm done complaining... For me it's really very black and white. If someone offers me something and says I don't have to pay for it I will lilkely take them up on it. If they explicitly say "No, you can't have this unless you pay for it" then DUH, OF COURSE I won't take it. I don't care if there is a law against it or whether or not I will be punished. I have respect for other people and won't do it. And if someone else takes it and offers it to me... doesn't change things one bit. I didn't pay for it.

4 days ago I bought an mp3 player. I have several mp3's on my hard drive made from cd's from my past life (before we had 4 kids). As I was going through the files I realized my old music really blows, and it would be nice to have something FROM THIS CENTURY lol!!! I thought about how easy it would be to get some new tunes for myself.

My husband regularily uses a file sharing program (won't mention any names) to STEAL (in my opinion) movies, progs, games and music. I have always tried to convince him that just because it's all there, for the taking, that's not an excuse for taking something without the owner's permission. I think he sets a bad example, I want our kids to have integrity, not just blindly follow the blind. I wan't them to stand up for what's right, have strong convictions and stand by them, not have the attitide "Hey, it's there, it's free, TAKE it. Doesn't matter who made it or how it got there, no one will catch me anyway so who cares?"

Taking something without the permission of the owner is WRONG!!! Didn't anyone ever tell you that???!!! Isn't that what looters do in states of emergency/disasters?

It doesn't matter if it's a chair, a car, a digital file. If you didn't pay for it it's not yours. And if someone asked you not to take it, then DON'T.

Have you ever had your home broken into? These people have no regard for things that are rightly acquired... EARNED. Do I have to put a sign on my house that says "PLEASE DON'T TAKE MY STUFF?" Even though everyone knows that I don't want my stuff stolen, not to mention it's against the law?

Perhaps there is no way of convincing downloaders ("file sharers" etcera!) that this is wrong, maybe they have to have someone take something of theirs before they can relate. Then they will know how it feels and figure it out.

BTW - I will never fire up that file sharing program. Occasionally I record a TV program though. Recently I recorded an episode of Oprah I just couldn't miss. The difference? Oprah has never said "Don't record my show!" and as far as I know, it's not against the law. Record companies have told us that they don't want us to take music without paying for it. For some reason they get a little annoyed when they put a lot of time, energy and money into creating something and people take it without paying for it! They are the owners, they have the rights to the music, SIMPLE... don't do it.

Peace out all :)

I hope ONE person who reads what I have written will decide against downloading :)
:) Shanny

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laszlo2000
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by laszlo2000 »

Great post Shanny, I whish there would be more people like you on this planet. :)
I have a high regard for your straight-cut view on right and wrong. But :) .... but nothing on Earth is black and white .... making a ridiculous amount of profit from a recording and stopping poor people enjoying it: it might be lawful but in my view is also wrong ...

So someone dream up a tune (or a poem or a great story) and now a multi billion dollar company have the right to stop everyone - not to make a profit out of it - but to sing or read or say or for God forbid reproduce this peace of art, for me this is a little unhuman, this is a law I would apply to a robot or a piece of machinery.

Saying this I think the law should also protect the hard working owner of all products, invention and other creations and help them to recover their costs and to earn a living. The law is only good if it protects everyone... I always tell my kids not to break the law, and I also tell them: never follow it blindly.

Downloading music without paying: wrong!
Stopping poor people from listening to it: also wrong!
I am lucky I can afford to pay for it so why bother..... :)

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Shanny »

laszlo2000 wrote:Downloading music without paying: wrong!
Stopping poor people from listening to it: also wrong!
Nothing wrong with "listening to it" as long as you have paid for it :)

Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. Poor people shouldn't be able to steal clothes or cars or even food for that matter, just because they are poor. If they can't afford music, movies or whatever they need to get a job (or a better one). If they can't get a job, they need to find other means of getting what they need, they don't have a right to take without permission.

Just my opinion, will keep an eye on this topic - hopefully someone will come up with something I can use to convince my husband that, as usual, I am right and he is wrong lol :)

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laszlo2000
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by laszlo2000 »

I am with you Shanny, being poor is not an excuse to steal someone else's property... we both agree on this ... stealing for greed, stealing because the others have more, or simply because it is possible, should never be tolerated. what I am saying is: just because it is the law, it doesn't automatically means it is a good law... So poverty stricken african boys and girls should not listen to the Beatles or Pavarotti... ever :cry: ... ok it is harsh but I can accept it, but how can someone take ownership of a tune or a word or a color? and is looking at someone's car is the same as stealing it? can someone forbid you to look at it?Hmmm... what a complex issue... I am talking strictly about music and art, but even these come in different formats and there is never a clear cut between them. Nothing is black and white... But one thing is sure... For me listening to a song or a poem will never be a crime, even if I didn't pay for it. Not everything in life should have a money value ....
(Hey at my place my wife is always right :D .... maybe I should ask her ... I bet she will tell me: sorry darling you are wrong listen to Shanny, us girls we know these things better.... :lol: )
Don't take me too serious, on other forums my nick is: REBEL

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Shanny »

Too funny laszlo2000! Girlz rule and boyz drool.

Just kidding!

I agree that all laws are not perfect. But laws are made to protect people, and the majority of laws do help in protecting people. When people were first forced to wear seat belts many felt that the government/law had no right to have such control. Just an example... I think one day we will all feel the same way about smoking by-laws, wondering why people where ever allowed to smoke in restaurants, stores and even hospitals in the first place.

My point is that our selfish desires are like a blindfold. We all know that taking something without paying for it (especially when we're told not to) is wrong, but for some reason, because we are in our homes, because it is there, because it is very easy to do and because we won't get caught... for some reason we think it's OK.
how can someone take ownership of a tune or a word or a color?
by creating it, putting their name on it, copyrighting it. I get what you mean though, but it's the way it has to be or else no one would create anything, if they new it would just be stolen, except for those who want to share. I say give them what they ask for in return... money.
poverty stricken african boys and girls should not listen to the Beatles or Pavarotti...
Tha't sad. I hope someone gives them some music to listen to, and a walkman to listen to it, and power, and a house for that matter, and a computer to play games on... and oh, SOME FOOD would be nice.

I think record companies are more focused on the millions and millions of people who do have computers and those who are "sharing" files without purchasing them. Sharing is nice, aren't those people so nice?! How generous, buying something then copying it to share with millions even though they have been asked not to.

Since I am not poor I have a personal decision to make, do I take whatever I can just because it's there?
For me listening to a song or a poem will never be a crime, even if I didn't pay for it. Not everything in life should have a money value...
I agree, companies don't have the rights to "sound" or "words" or "colors" but you can listen to a song on the radio or listen to parts of it on "legal" web sites. Then you can choose to buy or not.

Also, I think that the arguement that a cd that only has 1 or 2 good songs on it and therefore is not worth paying for is just ridiculous. Regardless of what YOU (whoever :) ) thinks about the "other" songs, that artist still worked to create them, and also ALL of the songs are copyrighted, whether we like them or not. Besides it can take months for some songs to hit the charts after the album is out, no one can predict which are the good and bad songs.

I'm saying... when you buy a cd you are paying for they whole cd, not just a few songs. You are paying for the project that the artist put months of their life into, it's a reflection of them, that time in their life, their talent, whatever. There are probably some people who DO like all of those songs... well likely not lol

Got a date with Billy Blanks, peace out :)
:) Shanny

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Drunky »

Shanny wrote:It doesn't matter if it's a chair, a car, a digital file. If you didn't pay for it it's not yours. And if someone asked you not to take it, then DON'T.
Downloading something and taking something physically are not the same thing.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Shanny »

I'm editing what I said here so that I don't appear to be rude!!!
:) Shanny

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by laszlo2000 »

Me and Shanny we both agree on this: downloading music without paying for it is against the law. So it is wrong.
And I agree with myself :D that this law is not 100% right... music should not be owned but should be distributed to better man kind....
Well the world isn't perfect, and it would be very boring if it was......
Now Shanny, did you say:
When people were first forced to wear seat belts many felt that the government/law had no right to have such control. Just an example...
Ohh boy (girl :lol: ) don't even start me on this!! And the helmets on motorbikes!! Grrrrrr ... anyway I will not hijack the topic .... This is a bad bad topic if your name is REBEL.... hehe

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Dark Frost
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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Dark Frost »

I know the topic is old, but I can't help it :D

The average user and music downloader/purchaser
Income: $7.00 - $14.00 an hour / $20,000.00 per year
+ Bills, Food, Gas, Addictions
Full time job struggling like everyone else to stay ahead

The average musician
Income: x - x an hour / $50,000.00 - $100,000.00 per year
They write an album of songs
Then they get paid to go on tour, play at venues, do shows, etc etc

The average music manager
Income: x - x an hour / $80,000.00 - Doesnt even matter at this point.. per year
They make calls, set up shows, etc etc

The average cd label company / distribution company / etc
Income: You don't even want to know
They don't have to do a damn thing, people come to them and they get rich...

-------------------------------

That being said...
Although it is morally wrong and we all know it.
Most average people on the planet work their ass off to support themselves and their families. They have to do this non-stop, they never get a break, they don't get to "release" anything for hundreds of thousands of dollars of profit. They simply don't make as much money as musicians and never will.

Who's the one in the wrong?

The average person not wanting to spend $15 - $25 on one single CD that they will listen to until it gets old in a few months?

Download all you want, I feel your pain...
Just remember that when the time comes they will win, they always do, and you will pay for it one way or the other. :roll:

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Lord Odin »

With no disrespect intended, I find some of the perspectives here laughable.

For example: the belief that downloading digital content, which isn't freely available to the general public, isn't stealing because of, well, whatever reason you wish to use. On the contrary, it is the definition of stealing. Taken from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
intransitive verb
1 : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
transitive verb
1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car> b : to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen our liberty> c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a kiss>
You didn't produce that movie, write that song, develop that game, or assist in it's creation in any way, and thus don't have a leg to stand on in order to call it yours. You've taken something that you aren't the owner of, and without permission or right; therefore, you've stolen.

The perspective that this theft is justified because the owner has a greater income also brings a few chuckles.

I mean, if John Doe, janitor at the local grocery store, is entitled to acquire music, movies, etc. for free over the internet (or copied from a friend, co-worker, whatnot) simply because he doesn't make as much as that production company, recording label or development studio, then by that same logic it's alright if John goes to the local car dealership and takes whatever automobile he chooses. After all, he's making less than them as well. In fact, if John is making less money than you, he'd then be entitled to take any of your items, also. Essentially, the person who, apparently, applied themselves more towards the better lifestyle is being punished for it, while the person who didn't is being rewarded for their lack of effort (for lack of a better phrase at the moment).

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by prince_of_oreon »

'Stealing' has the inherent idea that the owner is deprived of the thing stolen. Since 'stealing' music does not deprive the owner of his music, can it still be defined as 'stealing'. The same thing can be said for any object or work which is not expressed in physical matter.

I can steal a book from the store, but if I read the book in the store, and leave the store with the idea in my head am I stealing? Or, what if I memorize a poem from a book of poems which I do not own?

To 'steal' there must be the deprivation of the thing stolen. Perhaps I could steal profits, since profits are perhaps gone. But 'stealing' digital musicthrough downloading, no one has ever done. Because the musician is not deprived of his music or of those megabytes of data.

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Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Lord Odin »

'Stealing' has the inherent idea that the owner is deprived of the thing stolen.
The act of larceny leaves the original owner with empty hands, so to speak. The act of stealing is not limited only to that which is tangible. Thievery was akin to larceny, in that by definition the victim was left without their possession, but even that has changed. Identity theft is a testament to that.

Your credit card number, social security number, private (perhaps intimate) photos, videos and documents on your computer are all examples of items that can be taken, without permission or right, yet remain in your possession. That fits the very definition of stealing. As does taking, for example, music off the internet.

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