Is it wrong to download?

Discussion of non-phpBB related topics with other phpBB.com users.
Forum rules
General Discussion is a bonus forum for discussion of non-phpBB related topics with other phpBB.com users. All site rules apply.
User avatar
GeorgiePorgie
Registered User
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:19 am
Location: 37° 42' N, 122° 05' W
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by GeorgiePorgie »

Anon wrote:For the umpteenth time, it's not stealing, it never will be stealing, and no matter how many people say it is it won't be stealing
For the second time, it might be considered stealing depending upon context and who's definition you are using. For instance, either of these 2 definitions for the word "stealing" from britannica.com might apply.
1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully
1 c : to take surreptitiously or without permission
As long as we're going to quibble about semantics, let's be accurate. Illegal downloading may not fit your definition of stealing. It probably isn't prosecuted as stealing in your locale, and it probably isn't considered a criminal matter. I don't think of it as stealing either. But as the britannica.com definition indicates, it is absurd to dismiss the term "stealing" as completely inappropriate within the context of this discussion. Many of us would not apply the definitions provided by britannica.com, but that does not invalidate the position of those that do apply their definition.

Why does someone's use of the word "stealing" have to sidetrack this discussion? Uh, nevermind, it sidetracked me too. :)
Last edited by GeorgiePorgie on Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
ElbertF
Registered User
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by ElbertF »

If it's really stealing, it's probably "wrong to download". But If I make a copy of your picture and take it with me, you're not missing anything and I didn't steal it. Should I have asked you first? Should I pay for it? Perhaps, but it's not stealing.
bodhost.com
Registered User
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:08 pm

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by bodhost.com »

Most important is the link-location for the download. Well i have seen many speaking about privacy rights when speaking in respect to download. So basically it depends from where you download. :)
User avatar
drathbun
Former Team Member
Posts: 12204
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: TOPICS_TABLE
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun »

ElbertF wrote:But If I make a copy of your picture and take it with me, you're not missing anything and I didn't steal it. Should I have asked you first? Should I pay for it? Perhaps, but it's not stealing.
What I think that you are missing here is the reduction in value of my asset.

Let's suppose that I take a picture of the Loch Ness Monster. Such an image would be valuable, yes?

Now suppose that for some reason you obtain a copy of that image from me, you post it on a web site, and 100,000 other people download it. Don't you agree that my asset has lost value because it is no longer unique? You may not have physically taken anything from my possession (I still retain the original image), but you affected the net value of my asset just the same. Record companies (whatever they may be, I am not defending them) own an asset. If you take that asset and post it on the web (which you have no right to do) and 100,000 other people download it, it reduces the value of that asset. It doesn't matter if you intended to buy the music or not; those are the rules. If you want it, buy it. If you don't like the rules, then support artists that use different rules. There are plenty of sources on the web for legitimate musical content that the artists themselves have elected to make available. It was their choice, not yours.

I am not going to argue semantics over copyright versus stealing. You are taking something from me, and it does not have to be a physical item. It could be monetary potential value or anything else that is less tangible.
I blog about phpBB: phpBBDoctor blog
Still using phpbb2? So am I! Click below for details
Image
ElbertF
Registered User
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by ElbertF »

drathbun wrote:
ElbertF wrote:But If I make a copy of your picture and take it with me, you're not missing anything and I didn't steal it. Should I have asked you first? Should I pay for it? Perhaps, but it's not stealing.
What I think that you are missing here is the reduction in value of my asset.
I'm not, but indeed I was just "arguing semantics" with GeorgiePorgie.
drathbun wrote:Let's suppose that I take a picture of the Loch Ness Monster. Such an image would be valuable, yes?

[..]
Of course, publishing another persons work without his or her permission is plain immoral. But how immoral are the people that find picture on the web and look at it? Same goes for music, it's available and people download it. I'm not going to pay a dollar for a single low quality MP3 if I can get it for free. But.. I wouldn't rip a CD and put it online either.

I can image how that sounds crooked, but as I mentioned before we have a policy on soft drugs in the Netherlands that is quite similar. You can't grow weed, but you can legally buy it. Or squatting, you can't break into an empty house that has been empty for a year but you can live in it if you replace the locks. The police allows it, squatters even have certain rights over that house and they can't just get kicked out. It's a grey area, some things just aren't black and white.
User avatar
Anon
Former Team Member
Posts: 7019
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Anon »

drathbun wrote:...
Indeed it is wrong, but it's called copyright infringement. By copying and redistributing your picture I've not stolen it, but I've infringed on your copyright. It's still not stealing though
User avatar
drathbun
Former Team Member
Posts: 12204
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: TOPICS_TABLE
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun »

Anon wrote:Indeed it is wrong, but it's called copyright infringement. By copying and redistributing your picture I've not stolen it, but I've infringed on your copyright. It's still not stealing though
In the same post I wrote this ;-)
drathbun wrote:I am not going to argue semantics over copyright versus stealing. You are taking something from me, and it does not have to be a physical item. It could be monetary potential value or anything else that is less tangible.
I blog about phpBB: phpBBDoctor blog
Still using phpbb2? So am I! Click below for details
Image
SamG
Former Team Member
Posts: 3221
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan
Name: Sam Graf

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by SamG »

Clearly people who use the word “steal” in this context are using it in the ordinary sense of coming into possession of something illegally or unethically. It makes no difference if the thing possessed is material or not, nor does it matter if the possessor is the original “infringer” or not. It's a verbal shorthand and shouldn't be critiqued as if it were otherwise, it seems to me. More importantly, I don't see how arguing that point clarifies the discussion here at all.
User avatar
GeorgiePorgie
Registered User
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:19 am
Location: 37° 42' N, 122° 05' W
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by GeorgiePorgie »

The first U.S. jury trial for an "illegal music downloading" case ended today with a victory for the record industry. Here's an interesting article about the trial and its outcome:

"Four reasons why the RIAA won a jury verdict of $220,000"

http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-979176 ... =nefd.blgs

It looks like she should have settled early, for a few thousand dollars, when she had a chance. I suppose hindsight is 20/20.

I don't expect this verdict to change any behaviors, but it might give people some food for thought.
Image
ElbertF
Registered User
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:41 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by ElbertF »

In addition, here's a nice article about the case and downloading in general..

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story? ... 473&page=1
Ricker500
Registered User
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Ricker500 »

How you seen the article where someone explains the new law about file sharing and tell people they can't have visitors over when they watch a film? It's quite amusing but I can't seem to find it.
/Magnus is a swedish webmaster with more than 40 active sites, one of them a phpBB: Blogg-Forum.se (Swedish)
User avatar
carita
Registered User
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:23 pm
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by carita »

My cousins friend got a 25000€ fine for downloading music and movies. I got no idea how much he had downloaded, but quite much I would figure with that price
User avatar
drathbun
Former Team Member
Posts: 12204
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: TOPICS_TABLE
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun »

Ricker500 wrote:How you seen the article where someone explains the new law about file sharing and tell people they can't have visitors over when they watch a film?
And it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

You can have people over to watch your movie. You can have people over to listen to your music. You simply cannot copy your movie / music and send a copy home with them.
I blog about phpBB: phpBBDoctor blog
Still using phpbb2? So am I! Click below for details
Image
Ricker500
Registered User
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by Ricker500 »

But I think it does since you in most countries actually can send them a copy home you just can't send it over the net. The music/software/film industry is alone with the end user copyright laws they have. No other industry has them. For example it's legal to make a copy of a sofa in most countries as long as you are not going to sell it. Even if it's a designer sofa. The industries advertising saying that downloading is stealing is plain wrong, downloading is actually the opposite of stealing. Copyright is a limitation to your ownership, copyright says that even if you paid for something you can't decide what to do with it. Stealing is doing claiming something without the owners approval and in file sharing you do have the owners approval because the owner is the one sharing the film/song/program. The record companies can claim that they are the owner all they want, they are not, they have sold the product ie file sharing is not stealing. It is illegal but stealing it is not.

Record companies also tend to claim that every time you download a song a poor artist dies. This is not true either for several reasons. One of them being that there is no evidence at all showing that file sharing actually lessens the sales. The only serious research done on the subject by the Royal Institute of Science in Sweden with fundings from the EU says the opposite, you can't show any correlation between file sharing and decrease in sales. The sales are dropping for other reasons. Another reason that the poor artists don't get any poorer is that record sales have never been a big part of the artists income, definately not for the small artists since the record companies claim all the money.

Isn't it wrong to download because the record companies lose money then?
No, the record companies offer a service that is packaging and distribution of a song. They don't make the song they just deliver it to you. Yet, they still have a monopoly, it's illegal for anyone to compete with them. No one can sell Madonna songs except Madonnas record company. The thing is that the packaging and distribution isn't up do date. They use a system that was outdated 20 years ago. Their idea of a good delivery system for music is pressing round discs and transport them around the world on vehicles powered by fossile fuels. And for this they claim the major part of the incomes for the record, money that should go to the artist if things weren't in the monopoly state they are today.

Today 3 media conglomerates have 75% of the world market but with a bit of luck the trend of new, small and smart record companies that actually deliver music on the net will keep going and the market might change. A market needs competition and there has been none for the last 40 years. No wonder they can charge massive overprices for a service that people don't want.
/Magnus is a swedish webmaster with more than 40 active sites, one of them a phpBB: Blogg-Forum.se (Swedish)
User avatar
drathbun
Former Team Member
Posts: 12204
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: TOPICS_TABLE
Contact:

Re: Is it wrong to download?

Post by drathbun »

Ricker500 wrote:But I think it does since you in most countries actually can send them a copy home you just can't send it over the net. The music/software/film industry is alone with the end user copyright laws they have. No other industry has them. For example it's legal to make a copy of a sofa in most countries as long as you are not going to sell it. Even if it's a designer sofa.
US copyright laws do not distinguish between selling or giving away a copy. If you duplicate copyrighted material and distribute it you are breaking the law. Thus, you cannot send home a copy, even if you do not charge for it. I don't pretend to be an expert on international law, but I expected that it would be the same.
The industries advertising saying that downloading is stealing is plain wrong, downloading is actually the opposite of stealing. Copyright is a limitation to your ownership, copyright says that even if you paid for something you can't decide what to do with it. Stealing is doing claiming something without the owners approval and in file sharing you do have the owners approval because the owner is the one sharing the film/song/program.
No, you don't. When you buy a music or movie, you are not acquiring the distribution rights to that content. You might own the physical media, and you may resell that if you want, but you are not allowed to make copies and distribute them. Why would movie theaters pay the big bucks for movies if they could just go to their local discount store, buy a DVD, and show that? Because it's not allowed, that's why.
No wonder they can charge massive overprices for a service that people don't want.
If nobody wanted it, there would be no market, digital downloads or otherwise. ;-) People want music, people enjoy music, I don't think that's the issue. What I see as the issue is that the move to digital media has provided so many easy opportunities for illegal distribution and copying.

Just because something is easy doesn't make it legal, ethical, or even fair.

It comes down to distribution rights. Buying the cd doesn't give you the distribution rights.

There is an interesting approach by the band Radiohead... they're providing their latest album on their website. The price? You pick. :) I you want to download the album and pay nothing, that's ok. If you want to pay something, that's ok too. But the band made that choice, it wasn't someone else making the choice for them. That means that it's legal and even encouraged to distribute the content. They don't include any restrictions (DRM) on the media that you download either.

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/14693/53/

I read another article that suggests that the real money for the band will come from the tour, and not from album sales. So they're "selling" the album at a loss to increase interest in their tour. Again, that is their choice, and not someone else's.

Prince (or the artist formerly known as, or whatever he's going by now) distributed several million copies of his latest work for free by including it in a newspaper. I think that was in England (London?) but I don't remember and don't have time to find a link. Again, it was his choice to do that.

If I am an artist and I create something, it should be my right to decide how it's distributed or sold.
I blog about phpBB: phpBBDoctor blog
Still using phpbb2? So am I! Click below for details
Image
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”

cron