Is it wrong to download?

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tim96120
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Post by tim96120 »

AdamR wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:In the US, it is considered stealing. Possibly other places too.


Technically, so is popping in a VHS/DVD or using your DVR to record a show. Which is why I have no problem with people downloading TV shows. Movies and music are a completely different story.

- Adam


you can record movies from tv and music from the radio too is that stealing too then??

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Post by VVVZZZ »

drathbun wrote: So, I didn't realize there were 5000 songs from Canadian artists. ;-) Obviously you must not have downloaded any music from American aritsts, as their works are protected under international copyright law, not just American laws.


Canadian and American (and the rest of the world) songs have identical treatment in Canadian copyright law.

So it makes no difference what country the songs came from, as far as Canada is concerned, they have equal copyright status. Which is to mean, download all you want! You already paid for it by buying CD-Rs (and historically, buying blank tapes).

Sure, don't the major record companies like Sony and EMI have offices in Canada? Wouldn't they get a slice of the CD-R tax?

At least 4000 of those songs were American.

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Post by Drunky »

VVVZZZ wrote: Although I have absolutely no intention to move to the United States (I'm hardly inclined to move to another province, let alone another country), the USA seems to have draconian copyright laws compared to Canada, and thus I would respond accordingly.

America is even annoyed with Canada's easygoing attitude with copyright law. We're on their Special 301 Watch List, and even some other IP associations are pretty upset with Canada.

As for Canada, Former Prime Minister Paul Martin attempted to make copyright law stricter (I was prepared even then to destroy my MP3 collection should it have fell through), but he failed because the non-confidence motion made his government fall down, and his bill fell down with it.

Current Prime Minister Stephen Harper seems somewhat interested in making copyright law stricter, but nothing has happened so far.


I wouldn't have deleted any of my MP3's if a law like that was passed.

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Post by Gud »

Techie-Micheal wrote: In the US, it is considered stealing. Possibly other places too.


No it isn't. It's copyright infringement in the US as well.

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Post by AdamR »

tim96120 wrote: you can record movies from tv and music from the radio too is that stealing too then??


In general, movies are not made exclusively for TV; they are shown in theaters and then released to DVD at which point you have the opportunity to purchase them. Showing them on TV at a later date is in the same format as the radio. It's only a method to 1) provide enjoyment and 2) to, in essence, advertise that movie so viewers will go out and purchase it.

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Acreo Aeneas
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Post by Acreo Aeneas »

You know what?

I'm not at all in agreement with those of you who express that downloading content and such illegally is okay. The only thing I'd find a gray area is TV shows that have been off air for such a long time and may never ever see a store shelve (unreleased with no plans on release).

Otherwise, if you can't afford it or if you can, don't illegally download the software or content. If you want to try the software, fine, d/l the trial version and the demo. That's why those exist. Stealing is stealing, no matter what spin or justification you want to put on it.

It has always been a concern for me. It being people who will download something that I have spent long hours and many brain cells trying to create only for someone to go and rip it off the internet and not to compensate me for it. I'm a freelance web developer, and I see images and pages I have made at no cost to the receiver get ripped off of the original site and transplanted elsewhere without even giving me some credit.


On the other hand, I do not agree for the most part with what the RIAA here in the USA are doing. They do not fully represent interests of recording artists within the U.S. They represent their bottom lines and the lining of their pockets. Artists don't see anywhere near a significant amount from record/song sales. Companies like BMG, EMI, and such reap most of those sales into "profits".

But just because I'm adamant in disagreeing with what the RIAA are doing, I will not illegally get my music. I will go out and own the music if I really want it.

And for those of you who don't believe the authorities will get you. You are mistaken. I know of several friends and close friends who's friends (and even spouses) have been arrested by the FBI for copyright infringement for owning a few songs (some owned large collections). You don't want the Feds busting down you front door. Your futures are in dismay and thrown out the window because of such thoughtless acts.


Eek. I see the word "infinite" thrown around too much. In theory infinite or infinity might exist or have some application. In reality, it is not the case. Nothing is infinite in this universe. It simply does not follow the basic principle of economics. We have unlimited wants and needs, but resources and such are limited.
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Post by VVVZZZ »

Acreo Aeneas wrote: And for those of you who don't believe the authorities will get you. You are mistaken. I know of several friends and close friends who's friends (and even spouses) have been arrested by the FBI for copyright infringement for owning a few songs (some owned large collections). You don't want the Feds busting down you front door. Your futures are in dismay and thrown out the window because of such thoughtless acts.


There you go Drunky.

That's heavy-handed United States copyright law for ya. I'd even be a little nervous to even own legit software/music, lest it be mistaken for pirate stuff (only the original CDs/DVDs maybe safe to own).

Especially purchasing MP3 downloads. The fact that it's an MP3 is risky, even if you purchased it from the record company itself, I wouldn't trust it that's for bloody well sure.

Or these days, Microsoft and many other software companies allow you to buy and download their software online. The fact that it is downloaded puts you in the danger zone. How's anyone on the outside supposed to know that you downloaded it from the actual copyright holder or if you got it from a Warez/P2P? The only thing they can do is assume you got it on Warez/P2P. It would be too easy to lie and say you bought it online.

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Post by Drunky »

VVVZZZ wrote:
Acreo Aeneas wrote:And for those of you who don't believe the authorities will get you. You are mistaken. I know of several friends and close friends who's friends (and even spouses) have been arrested by the FBI for copyright infringement for owning a few songs (some owned large collections). You don't want the Feds busting down you front door. Your futures are in dismay and thrown out the window because of such thoughtless acts.


There you go Drunky.

That's heavy-handed United States copyright law for ya. I'd even be a little nervous to even own legit software/music, lest it be mistaken for pirate stuff (only the original CDs/DVDs maybe safe to own).

Especially purchasing MP3 downloads. The fact that it's an MP3 is risky, even if you purchased it from the record company itself, I wouldn't trust it that's for bloody well sure.

Or these days, Microsoft and many other software companies allow you to buy and download their software online. The fact that it is downloaded puts you in the danger zone. How's anyone on the outside supposed to know that you downloaded it from the actual copyright holder or if you got it from a Warez/P2P? The only thing they can do is assume you got it on Warez/P2P. It would be too easy to lie and say you bought it online.


Actually, if its as bad as he/she says then a lot more people would be getting arrested. Go on IRC and you will see millions of people with huge folders of games/music/movies/whatever.

Sure IRC was originally created for chatting but now when people think of IRC they think of downloading.

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Post by GeorgiePorgie »

VVVZZZ wrote: That's heavy-handed United States copyright law for ya. I'd even be a little nervous to even own legit software/music, lest it be mistaken for pirate stuff (only the original CDs/DVDs maybe safe to own).

Especially purchasing MP3 downloads. The fact that it's an MP3 is risky, even if you purchased it from the record company itself, I wouldn't trust it that's for bloody well sure.

The US enforcement efforts are heavy handed indeed, but if your mp3 files were ripped from your own CD collection then there's no need to worry. Unless you share them, or stream them without paying for licensing, etc.

In the US, the cause of copyright holders might be improved if the process of licensing was not so complicated. I am licensed to stream my mp3 files that contain copyrighted music, but look at the kind of stuff you have to get involved with in order to do it:

http://www.soundexchange.com/licensing101.html

If that process was easier to understand, it might not scare off as many people - and more people might use the copyrighted works in a legal licensed manner. Of course, it is the cost that scares off most of 'em. :)

When doing things "the right way" is a big pain in the butt, it isn't surprising to see so many people blow it off. That's not a justification, of course.

I'm in agreement with those who desire to protect the rights of copyright holders. I've agreed with about 99% of what drathbun has said in this thread so far.

I'd like to see the enforcement become more reasonable and I'd like to see the licensing become less complex.
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Post by drathbun »

GeorgiePorgie wrote: I've agreed with about 99% of what drathbun has said in this thread so far.

What did I get wrong? ;-) From your post (and your web site) I would expect that you are far more knowledgable about the topic than I am, so if I got my facts wrong I would appreciate a correction.

On the other hand, if it's an opinion that you've disagreed with, that's another matter. :-)
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GeorgiePorgie
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Post by GeorgiePorgie »

drathbun wrote:
GeorgiePorgie wrote:I've agreed with about 99% of what drathbun has said in this thread so far.

What did I get wrong? ;-) From your post (and your web site) I would expect that you are far more knowledgable about the topic than I am, so if I got my facts wrong I would appreciate a correction.

On the other hand, if it's an opinion that you've disagreed with, that's another matter. :-)

I'm certainly not an expert on these matters, I only know enough to know that I don't know enough. :)

The 1 percent is a trivial matter of semantics, not a matter of substance. :wink: It is the bit, early in the topic, where you described the illegal activity in this manner:
drathbun wrote: That - no matter how you spin it - is stealing.

I'm not sure that I agree with the use of the word "stealing" as a description of the act. I'm not sure that I disagree with it, either. In discussions about this topic elsewhere, I myself have invoked the word "stealing". So if it the wrong word, then I'm guilty too.

The spirit of word "stealing" does seem apt for the act of illegal downloading, and a dictionary definition of the word "stealing" would seem to apply correctly. But "stealing" is a word commonly associated with the criminal act of theft, and it is usually not theft that the downloaders are hounded for (to my knowledge, anyway). The legal cases that I'm aware of are civil cases involving copyright abuse, not criminal cases involving theft.

Aside from my *possible* objection to the term "stealing" to describe the act of illegal downloading, I am in complete agreement with everything you've said in this topic. :)
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Acreo Aeneas
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Post by Acreo Aeneas »

When I said large collections, I did not mean legal collections. These friends and friends of friends don't own one single legit copy of any song in their collection. So they got what they deserved to an extent. Although I think the closest call was a friend who was a close friend of a classmate from high school who got busted in broad daylight by a FBI taskforce in his underwear. I heard about it 5 hours after it went down. My friends and I talked about that event alone and such for the following week nonstop. In the end, some of us decided never to go down that road. Others ignored it and still continue to this day (along with other illegal activities).
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Post by Drunky »

Acreo Aeneas wrote: When I said large collections, I did not mean legal collections. These friends and friends of friends don't own one single legit copy of any song in their collection. So they got what they deserved to an extent. Although I think the closest call was a friend who was a close friend of a classmate from high school who got busted in broad daylight by a FBI taskforce in his underwear. I heard about it 5 hours after it went down. My friends and I talked about that event alone and such for the following week nonstop. In the end, some of us decided never to go down that road. Others ignored it and still continue to this day (along with other illegal activities).


Did I say the people on IRC have legal collections?

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Post by VVVZZZ »

Computers and the Internet have made copyright law far more difficult to deal with.

Copyright law made far more sense back in old times.

For example: Xerox machines were expensive, it was cheaper to buy the book. And even so, the majority of books, it was blatantly obvious who owned copyright and copyright owners made it very clear whether you could copy or not.

This old system is struggling to adapt to today's Internet, hence it's hard to truly know the answer to the question "Is it wrong to download?" as per the topic title.

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Post by Anon »

Acreo Aeneas wrote: Stealing is stealing, no matter what spin or justification you want to put on it.


Stealing is stealing. Copyright infringement is not

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