United States Gunlaw(s)

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thecoalman
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

We all know more people die in the US from gunshots, that stands to reason. There is over 200 million guns legally owned in the US, someone gets shot they are more likely to die than if they were stabbed. Lets look at some other statistics:

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

Burglaries (per capita) :
United Kingdom: 13.8321 per 1,000 people
United States: 7.09996 per 1,000 people

Car thefts (per capita):
United Kingdom: 5.6054 per 1,000 people
United States: 3.8795 per 1,000 people

And the one I find most amusing, Frauds (per capita):
United Kingdom: 5.28324 per 1,000 people
United States: 1.25721 per 1,000 people

Do you think the possibility of getting shot may preclude a lot of these crimes from happening in the US?

One thing that should be noted is a lot of the gun violence in the US is criminals shooting criminals.


-------------------------------------

Before you go taking everyones guns away you have to consider the following.

1. These guns are quite valuable and have been legally purchased, the consumer should be compensated and this would cost an astronomical amount of money.

2. You're not going to take them out of the hands of criminals, there is huge black market now and making them illegal will only increase the availability of them to the criminal element.

3. Some of these guns are family heirlooms dating back centuries and cannot be replaced for any amount of money.

4. The hunting industry in the US is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 80 Billion dollar a year business, that's a lot of people out of work.
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Scizz
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Scizz »

I could go to the United States, buy a gun, simple, and kill people with it, if I was that retarded :)

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

I believe you need to be a legal resident of the US to buy a gun legally. It's not quite as simple as has been posted by someone else especially where handguns are concerned. The laws vary by states but they all do some form of a background check for handguns. That is of course assuming a legal purchase.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

Hmm, I'm sure he meant, you could just buy a gun from a shop, illegally, of course.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

I don't know the procedures in place but I'd imagine it's practically impossible for gunshop to sell a gun illegally. First any of their inventory will be well documented so they would have to show where it went. Secondly even if they did not only are they putting their business at risk but would also risk getting sued. The gun market is quite lucrative, no legitimate businessman is going to put that at risk.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

Then again, I guess you can ask someone who has documentation, and is a US citizen xD
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

Liquinn wrote:Then again, I guess you can ask someone who has documentation, and is a US citizen xD
When my dad purchased a handgun, it was a 15 (might have been 30, can't remember) day waiting period, background check, etc.

Since people seem to not be able to grasp the concept, I will state it again:

- Those convicted of a felony (murder, robbery, etc.) cannot own a firearm - ever.
- Those who are defined by the state as being mentally ill cannot own a firearm. While this varies from state to state as to what requirements need to be met, it amounts to the same thing in all 50 states
- You are required to register your firearm
- Being in possession of an unregistered firearm will cause a lot of trouble for you
- Firearm dealerships are governed by the ATF, or Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms federal office. They issue permits to dealerships and control various aspects of firearms, alcohol, and tobacco, among other things.

So you cannot just "walk in and buy a gun and kill people." Get that idiotic thought out of your head. How many times does this have to be explained?

So what of a gun application? You are required to be a US citizen. You are required to go through a background check. You are required to pay a processing fee in most if not all 50 states. http://www.co.gaston.nc.us/sheriff/GunPermit.htm is one such information for a permit. This is not for the purchase of a firearm. There are age restrictions.
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Liquinn
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

Agree with that.

Anyway...
Going to spain again on the 17th to the 24th of August 2008 after I leave school, so probably won't be around as much during that one week period.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by HySpeed »

This is a pretty good discussion.
I've been in a lot of firearms discussions and there have been some pretty good point-counter points.

If you would like to read an excellent article about why the gun allows civilization to be civilized, I recommend this post by Munchkin Wrangler. Here is the opening para:
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
Totally tangential to that, however, is the subject of firearms in the US. It is written into the Constitution, which is the highest law of the land. That is an important fact. The US Constitution cannot be changed by the President, Congress, or the People by themselves. All three groups must agree - over a period of many years. It isn't an easy process and it wasn't designed to be easy.

More importantly, however, is why the 2nd Amendment (which ensures the right to have guns) is even there. The 56 men who wrote the US Constitution studied history. They believed that people needed guns to protect themselves - not from animals and not from criminals, but from Governments. They wanted the citizens of the States to be able to defend themselves from foreign governments in case of an invasion, but also from the US Government in case it went bad and became a tyranny. If you read the Federalist Papers - which is a collection of documents written by many of these men from before and after the Constitution was written - you will learn that the thing they feared most was the US Government becoming corrupt and ultra-powerful and turning into another dictatorship.

So, to re-iterate, the gun culture in the US isn't about hunting or crime prevention (per se). It is about protecting the States and the Citizens from the Federal Government. As the recent years have demonstrated, it appears to be a fear that was well founded and my be coming to fruition.
Scary thought, that.

Thanks for allowing me to post on the subject.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by pKai »

I have to jump in on this one.. I'm American and an avid gun owner/collector. I own guns for protection (only a couple for this purpose), hunting, and collecting for pleasure as well as investment (20-30% plus a year appreciation if you know what to buy and its nowhere near as difficult to master as say, the stock market) To do any serious collecting here in the US, you must have a Collector's license (called a C&R FFL)from the Federal government that allows you traffic more like a dealer than a retail purchaser... although in most places there's no limit on the number of guns you can purchase at retail with all the red tape that goes with it. Its just a pain and you WILL pay more.

The previous poster refereed to the 2nd Ammendment of the Constitution and the fact that it will likely never change because its difficult to change -- here's how difficult is is to change the US Constitution:

1. Both houses of the US Congress have to pass it and the President has to sign it.
2. Two-Thirds of the 50 States' own legislative bodies have to individually pass it. Some states require direct votes by the public for this and some have 2/3 majority requirements themselves.

It is because of #2 that it will likely never happen. Here in the US, it is almost impossible to get 2/3 of the states to agree on what color the sky is, much less something as controversial as this.

But all that is besides the point. Consider this:

1. Cocaine has been 100% illegal in the US for exactly a century now. 100 years. All the previously existing cocaine I'm sure is gone now. ZERO legitimate use -- its VERY EXISTENCE is banned. In spite of this and the fact that penalties for posession and distribution are quite hefty, cocaine is widely available anywhere in the US and very easy to get -- just go to any popular "in-crowd" nightclub in any decent-sized city and quietly ask around. Someone will soon supply your demand.

Supply and demand, that's all its about.

2. One could never ban guns the way Cocaine is banned. Cops and the military would still get to have them -- so, unlike cocaine, GUNS WOULD STILL LEGALLY EXIST -- to be stolen, diverted from their ligitimate destination, sold on the black market, etc....

Becuase of these 2 points, the "gun ban" would be much less effective than the "cocaine ban" -- and we all see how effective the cocaine ban is....

The bottom line is -- good people with guns present no problem for anyone. Bad people with guns ARE the problem and it is not ANY government's place to tell its law-abiding citizens (we are not "subjects") what they can and cannot own whether its cars, houses, or guns -- within reason, of course -- I think we all can agree that nukes are off the table.

We need to work on the bad guys, the root causes of crime, etc.....

And yes, gun bans only result in the good guys giving up the guns and the bad guys getting more and getting bolder because now their victims are guaranteed to be defenseless. Many posters from the UK have already attested to this here. In the US there are several individual cities with UK-style gun prohibitions. The most notorious example is Washington D.C., our capital. Since they banned guns there some 30 years ago, gun crime has been steadily rising to the point that for the last decade or so, it leads the nation in all categories of violent crime including murder, armed robbery, etc.... Crime rates in DC are several times the national average. The US capital is one of the deadliest places on planet earth outside the various war zones. I'm ashamed to admit it, but its true and IMHO 100% because of gun bans.... Neighboring cities without bans have crime rates much more comparable to the national averages.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Tripp »

Great post^

And yeah, Washington D.C., although our captial, is ranked in the top 5 or 10 cities in the United States with crime. So if that doesn't tell you something then I don't know what does.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by broadbandwizard »

pKai makes a lot of sense by describing what is legal, illegal, and most importantly obtainable. The comment about the 100 year old cocain is priceless (with apologies to the credit card people) because it perfectly describes all of the various prohibitions that have been tried in the US. Al Capone supplied alcohol to Chicago and some people by the name of Kennedy supplied it up in Massachusetts. Now they all made a lot of money and got rich, but Al did not pay his taxes, and wound up in the "graybar hotel".

Lets face it, making something illegal does absolutely no good as pKai so accurately pointed out, the only thing that it does is raise the price and get people killed when they try to traffic in the illegal product. To paraphrase an often heard expression, "when cocain is outlawed, only outlaws will have cocain". Some people recall that when WWII broke out, the UK had been enduring its gun bans for a very long time and did not have anything to fight with. The US farmers and hunters sent their guns to the UK so they would have something to fight with until they could make guns. It was a pretty close call because if the US had not assisted, the people in the UK (and much of Europe) would probably be speaking German today. The famous German who started WWII sensibly registered guns. The people registered, then the Gestapo went out at night to pick them up. Same as the former Soviet Union, sensible things like registration make it easy to go get them. Same thing in Australia. Registration is bad - very bad.

To add some new thoughts, please note the problems that they are having in Africa where unarmed people are being killed at an alarming rate. I am sure that these victims feel very good about being sensible and unarmed. It is said that if you talk nice to the bear he might eat you last. Free men and women have weapons, subjects do not. The framers of our Constitution knew that, but many people today have forgotten. In the military, they taught us things that free people do that subjects can't.

An earlier writer said that "...the US Government is POWERLESS to stop CRIMINALS from getting guns...", but this also applies to anything else that they ban, including cocaine, alcohol, other drugs, and now they are incrementally banning cigarettes. It is pretty difficult for the government to stop criminals from getting or doing anything they want to do. That is why they call them criminals, they do not obey the law. This is not rocket science, if you break the law you are a criminal.

In case you did not notice, God did not make everyone equal - Sam Colt did that. Just compare your favorite line backer to your tiny 75 year old 90 pound Aunt Tillie. When Aunt Tillie puts on about 6 pounds ( a Remington 870 pump shotgun) I would venture to say that the linebacker would not pick a fight with her. True equality and security.

I have owned guns all my life, like my father and grandfather before me. My uncles were policemen and my son in law is a judge. No one has ever shot anybody, nor did the thought ever cross their mind. However, if they were being attacked and were cornered, I would suspect that they would defend themselves.

Some people own guns and hunt, others shoot at targets, some just own them and clean them. The good thing is that they own them. A fine gun is a perfect example of craftsmanship in wood and metal. Works of art that work.

I am not a large man and can not fight like George Forman. In a serious social situation where someone was trying to break into my house, I would much prefer to have a gun instead of just a telephone. The police will always arrive in time to remove the victim's body from the crime scene. By making sure that everyone can legally have a gun, some criminals might decide to behave because they don't know which grandmother is packing a 45 automatic. When criminals are fairly cartain that no potential victim has a gun there will be more victims. Look at what is happening in the UK and Australia and our big cities like DC, New York, Detroit, and Chicago where guns are banned or heavily restricted. I believe that the massacre in Virginia would not have happened if a few law-abiding students had brought a gun to class with them. Unfortunately, they all were law-abiding and did not bring a gun to class, so 30 people died.

I grew up in a small town. Everyone had a gun. You could even order one in the mail. No one had locks on their doors. We did, but we did not have a key. I moved to a big city and had several locks on my door, and was not allowed to have a gun. I sold mine like a good law-abiding citizen. After I was mugged I bought another one.

I live in a small town again. Everyone is armed, I think, but I am not certain. I have a concelaed carry permit. So does nearly everyone else. You can walk down any street in town at night without fear. Everyone is polite.

In closing, I will ask the question that I ask people who do not think people should have guns. You must answer "yes" or "no", with no ifs ands or buts. I am walking down the street at night and I am carrying a concealed gun. I walk around a corner and see someone knifing you and you are screaming and bleeding profusely. The question: "Do you want me to get involved and use my gun to save your life?" I remind you again that your answer must be "yes" or "no", period. Sometimes I say that they have banned guns and I would certainly get in trouble if I saved your life. No one ever says no, at least not yet.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

broadbandwizard wrote: The famous German who started WWII sensibly registered guns. The people registered, then the Gestapo went out at night to pick them up. Same as the former Soviet Union, sensible things like registration make it easy to go get them. Same thing in Australia. Registration is bad - very bad.
Registration should not be an issue,I'm all for it. You need accountability and moreso its one way to keep them out of the hands of criminals to some degree. Without it any Tom Dick or Harry would be able to purchase a gun. I'm on the fence with a lot of these things that are brought up, on one hand you have the anti-gun lobby wanting largely very restrictive legislation and on the other hand you have the NRA that doesn't want to budge an inch on anything... FYI I don't blame them most of the time because as soon as you give an inch they take mile.

Juat my .02 but comparing legal gun ownership to anywhere else in the world or historical events is really not fair. To get the guns out of the hands of citizens would require at the very least three things:

1. Change in the constitution.
2. That the citizens actually hand them over.
3. Someone who's willing to try and collect them.

You'd have trouble getting one of those accomplished let alone all three.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by broadbandwizard »

Registration is indeed an issue, a very major one. The Fuhrer registered guns so he would not waste a lot of time going to pick them up at places where no one had one. Accountability will come when you put someone who uses a gun for a crime in jail for 20 years. Period. No lawyer, no plea bargain, no excuses. Do the time for the crime.

The First Ammendment, freedom of speech, we (supposedly) have it, but it must be politically correct and cannot be about an elected official if it is within 60 days of an election. Just a bit of modification there, as you might notice. These were "sensible" First Ammendment changes.

The Second Ammendment is the one that protects all the rest of them. No need to "change the Constitution", just misinterpret it, then register guns, and of course we need some other "sensible" (stupid) additional laws. We have tons of laws now; just enforce the ones that we have. Put people in the slammer for using a gun illegally. No problem, that is something that the NRA seriously supports. I am not certain what part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand. Study history and you will see disarmed populations suffering for their lack of insight into disarmament schemes by whatever name they use to start it. Start anytime in the past that you like, and carry your study to present day Africa, middle east, south America, and probably lots of other places.

"That citizens actually hand them over". They did in Australia, Canada, and New Orleans (and California, and New York, and Maryland, and Chicago, and...) The new law would just say it is a major felony and if they catch you with one they will put you in prison nearly forever and fine you to poverty. That is how they do it. Well, why not do that to someone who uses a gun illegally, instead? You probably noticed that the people that did not have guns in Virgina were the law-abiding people. The victims obeyed the "no-guns" law, the guy that did the killing was the criminal, by definition he didn't obey the law. Lets pass some more laws that the criminal will not obey. I won't feel a lot better when we have more laws for criminals to break. Duh? Like thecoalman said "give an inch and they take a mile".

"Someone who is willing to try and collect them". May I point out that they easily found someone in Australia, the UK, and even New Orleans where they collected them from the storm victims. I think the collectors were called "police officers" (the ones that did not cut and run after the storm). Recall the policeman in New Orleans that body slammed an old lady when she showed them that she had protection.

Pardon me if I don't believe that the police can or will protect me, even if they get there in time. Some politician may tell the police to take a list out and pick up all the law abiding citizens' guns.

I suggest the following safety tips when you when you go anywhere:
1. Always sit next to the guy wearing the NRA hat, you might get lucky.
2. Avoid places that are posted "no firearms allowed", because criminals know the people are defenseless.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

Louisiana State University Shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States December 13, 2007
Notre Dame Elementary shooting Portsmouth, Ohio, United States February 7, 2008
Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8, 2008
E.O. Green Junior High School shooting Oxnard, California, United States February 12, 2008
Northern Illinois University shooting DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14, 2008

That's just mad.
5 shootings within a short period of time...
Going to spain again on the 17th to the 24th of August 2008 after I leave school, so probably won't be around as much during that one week period.

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