United States Gunlaw(s)

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HySpeed
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by HySpeed »

Israel had a similar problem with terrorists attacking the schools.
They armed the teachers.

The bad people went away.

From my perspective the people who go into a public place and mass-murder others choose that place because it has a low likelyhood of someone else being able to stop them. If the goal were suicide, that can be done in the garage. If the goal were to shoot people, then be killed, that could be done at the police station.

It isn't a solution that makes everyone warm and fuzzy, but we are dealing with people who aren't right in the head. Warm and fuzzy doesn't work.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

Yeah, all shootings become part of documented history.
Going to spain again on the 17th to the 24th of August 2008 after I leave school, so probably won't be around as much during that one week period.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

With the exception of the last and recent one everyone one of those were not mass shootings and both the actor and victim knew each other, one was husband and wife. These aren't crimes of violence but crimes of passion. I'm not trying to lessen the fact that people have died but there is a difference.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Liquinn »

thecoalman wrote:With the exception of the last and recent one everyone one of those were not mass shootings and both the actor and victim knew each other, one was husband and wife. These aren't crimes of violence but crimes of passion. I'm not trying to lessen the fact that people have died but there is a difference.
Agreed, I'm talking about shootings in the context of a school shooting.
4 in that space of time is unacceptable, school shootings are unacceptable anyway.
Going to spain again on the 17th to the 24th of August 2008 after I leave school, so probably won't be around as much during that one week period.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Panterica »

yes i think they are to flexible.
im australian and heres what we did.

in 1994(i think)
1 guy went on a rampage with a semi automatic,
what resulted from this, is a step that i think all 1st world countries need to make.

semi autos were band, all people who possessed such weapons, had them bought back by the government, and were destroyed.

the logic behind this was that you can kill many with a gun that can fire automatically, but its easier to stop you if you have to reload after 8 shorts spurs.

we have not had a massecure like this since.

i think the the necessity to defend yourself is not as great as the necessity stop the re-occurance of events such as these.

the gun happy people can say, your not taking my m16, but what happens when the intruder gets there hands on it?
it aint pretty, a hand gun would do alot less damage to alot less people.

no guns dont kill people, people kill people, but its the guns they have access to which is the problem.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Tripp »

That actually is a good point.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Jim_UK »

Who knows how the minds of these folks work. I think they know that they stand virtually no chance of walking away from these mass murders and maybe they are committing suicide but determined they are going to take with them all the folks they have a grudge against, perceived or real.

The gun laws in the UK are so strict that it is very hard to legally acquire most of the weapons that are freely available in the USA. Even .22 ammunition that I believe you can buy in garages (gas stations) in the USA is impossible to purchase here without a permit.
I held a firearms certificate for many years and owned an Anshultz .22 semi automatic. It became common to get visits from the police at about 5am on a Sunday morning asking to inspect the weapon and the cartridges. They also put such tight restrictions on where I could use it that I ended up selling it to a dealer for peanuts.
This I might add was at least 20 years before the massacre at Dunblaine (1996) so even then it was pretty tough owning one.

Most folks over here can not believe how easy it is to purchase weapons in the USA.

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Techie-Micheal
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

Jim_UK wrote:Who knows how the minds of these folks work. I think they know that they stand virtually no chance of walking away from these mass murders and maybe they are committing suicide but determined they are going to take with them all the folks they have a grudge against, perceived or real.

The gun laws in the UK are so strict that it is very hard to legally acquire most of the weapons that are freely available in the USA. Even .22 ammunition that I believe you can buy in garages (gas stations) in the USA is impossible to purchase here without a permit.
I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never. Besides, if memory serves me correctly, you need to obtain a license. Just like you need a license to sell alcohol in the US.

The thing about banning guns, and I've said this already and it was ignored, is that people can and do make their own guns. Banning guns will do nothing to solve the problem.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Phil »

On top of that, like you've said I believe (and I've mentioned before as well), if you're intending to commit murder, obtaining a gun via the black market isn't exactly a difficult thing to do, and still wouldn't be even if guns were outlawed -- much like drugs, if there is demand, the supply will be met.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

iWisdom wrote:On top of that, like you've said I believe (and I've mentioned before as well), if you're intending to commit murder, obtaining a gun via the black market isn't exactly a difficult thing to do, and still wouldn't be even if guns were outlawed -- much like drugs, if there is demand, the supply will be met.
Indeedy.
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by thecoalman »

Techie-Micheal wrote: I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never.
I have, there is one right up the street, but he also carries guns too. It's a small privately owned gas station and this is certainly not the norm. There is no law that says you have to have just a gun store to sell ammo or even guns for that matter. You can walk into Wal-Mart and get ammunition for that matter.

Having said that I really don't think it matters where you're purchasing ammo or guns.
Panterica wrote: semi autos were band, all people who possessed such weapons, had them bought back by the government, and were destroyed.
Does that include the criminal elemen? no Need to answer that...:
* "The number of Victorians murdered with firearms has almost trebled since the introduction of tighter gun laws.
--Geelong Advertiser, Victoria, Sept. 11, 1997.
* "Gun crime is on the rise despite tougher laws imposed after the Port Arthur massacre, but gun control lobbyists maintain Australia is a safer place. . . . The number of robberies involving guns jumped 39% last year to 2183, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and assaults involving guns rose 28% to 806. The number of gun murders, excluding the Port Arthur massacre, increased by 19% to 75."
--"Gun Crime Rises Despite Controls," Illawarra Mercury Oct. 28, 1998.
* "Crime involving guns is on the rise despite tougher laws. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39% in 1997, while assaults involving guns rose 28% and murders by 19%."
--"Gun crime soars," Morning Herald, Sydney, Oct. 28, 1998.
* "Murders by firearms have actually increased (in Victoria) since the buyback scheme, which removed 225,000 registered and unregistered firearms from circulation. There were 18 shooting murders in 1996-97, after the buyback scheme had been introduced, compared with only six in 1995-1996 before the scheme started."
--"Killings rise in gun hunt," Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 23, 1998.
* "Victoria is facing one of its worst murder tolls in a decade and its lowest arrest rate ever."
--Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 11, 1999.
* "The environment is more violent and dangerous than it was some time ago."
--South Australia Police Commissioner Mal Hyde, reported in The Advertiser, Adelaide, Dec. 23, 1999.
There's pretty interesting table here describing the crime increase from 1997 to 1998:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets ... &issue=015
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HrevoWalker
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by HrevoWalker »

:twisted: being born in the US, I'd say I have a relatively decent opinion on this.

Now first, about the increasing number of...how can I really put this, gaps in the American systems.
Those same gaps being filled with bull-shit.

After our first, early incidents, there certainly should have been preventative actions that took place. Or at least the second, and so on...but still we see it occurring. Anyway, what is even worse is the way we will react to the situation. We will push for more gun protection at the schools, but gun access will be the same, and activity will even increase among the population as everyone begins to feel it necessary to have their own protection strapped to their sides at all times. We will clash so heavily with public protection and innocent self-protectors, not that it doesn't occur already.

This world is a smaller place in our minds' eye today, even if we choke up our gunlaws won't that just increase the amount of what will then be referred to as illegal activity and increase the same illegal activity that is happening now?

But then take this into consideration, our people our manipulated so easily by a seeded government that builds and builds conflict to leave behind for whomever. The ultimate grudge of man, you can not call me blind when I can clearly see the acting difference between a puppet and one's own action, you can see the strings that pull these people and you wonder who will finally cut them.

The problem truly lies in the factor of dependence. Some Americans, well really all people, rely on some sort of eye in the sky for everything they have. Now I will say Americans seem to be really bad at this. in fact anyone who depends on watching the news for their information is already in trouble.

The source of gun-control is truly the power of one's own mind, but you are right when you say there are people that in their mind, there is no reason why not to pull the trigger. the seed of evil is many things and it grows exponentially.

But it is not ignorance that is truly bringing us to our knees but it is apathy. I was born into the United States and was taught of its past, forever stamped with a disapproval...somewhere, by someone, regardless of how I view them. Have we not learned by now that this is a crazy world where all our needs are the same, and those who glutton for more and starve others of their own is what causes all this. Do we all not meet a common end, our blood does not circulate our bodies any differently, we all partake in the march of a million thoughts everyday in our lives.

so is it not just the bottom line that no matter what action you take against what perceived evil is at your doorstep, you are creating an evil on somebody else's doorstep?

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Techie-Micheal »

thecoalman wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote: I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never.
I have, there is one right up the street, but he also carries guns too. It's a small privately owned gas station and this is certainly not the norm. There is no law that says you have to have just a gun store to sell ammo or even guns for that matter.
I never said that there was such a law ...
You can walk into Wal-Mart and get ammunition for that matter.
I'm well-aware of that fact, having looked at firearms in said store and called them for ammunition information. ;)

Let me requote what I said since people are yet again not reading ...
Techie-Micheal wrote:
Jim_UK wrote:Who knows how the minds of these folks work. I think they know that they stand virtually no chance of walking away from these mass murders and maybe they are committing suicide but determined they are going to take with them all the folks they have a grudge against, perceived or real.

The gun laws in the UK are so strict that it is very hard to legally acquire most of the weapons that are freely available in the USA. Even .22 ammunition that I believe you can buy in garages (gas stations) in the USA is impossible to purchase here without a permit.
I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never. Besides, if memory serves me correctly, you need to obtain a license. Just like you need a license to sell alcohol in the US.

The thing about banning guns, and I've said this already and it was ignored, is that people can and do make their own guns. Banning guns will do nothing to solve the problem.
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Panterica
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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Panterica »

thecoalman wrote:
Panterica wrote: semi autos were band, all people who possessed such weapons, had them bought back by the government, and were destroyed.
Does that include the criminal elemen? no Need to answer that...:
i will answer that.
no but it limits there supply.
in the beginning there was alot of reports of these guns being seized, by people attempting to get them through ilegal means, i havnt seen one in a while, and also havnt heard reports of such guns being used.

some one said "just like drugs, where theres a market, people will attempt to sell".

that is true, but i think drugs is also a good example of where supply has been limited.
yes there still is alot of druggies, but getting these drugs is alot harder, and its no longer like the 70s where every second person was on drugs.

just yesterday, police reported the second biggest drug bust in aussie history, yes theres stil drugs on the market, but seizing that ammount of drugs means, alot of drugs wont end up on the street.

less drugs = demand = price goes up = users go down.

if we compare this to guns that could mean.

less guns = demand = price goes up = crazy people are less likely to get there hands on a semi auto.


prevention is not a cure, but it helps

*Making guns cannot be compared to drugs though, drugs can be made locally and easily, guns on the other hand need specialized equiptment and specialized people.

that means, that these guns would need to be shipped in, givin the usa defence, id dout many would get in.
Last edited by Panterica on Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: United States Gunlaw(s)

Post by Anon »

Techie-Micheal wrote:I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never. Besides, if memory serves me correctly, you need to obtain a license. Just like you need a license to sell alcohol in the US.

The thing about banning guns, and I've said this already and it was ignored, is that people can and do make their own guns. Banning guns will do nothing to solve the problem.
He just said
thecoalman wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote: I'm not sure where you got that information, but I have never seen gun ammo for sale in gas stations ... Never.
I have, there is one right up the street, but he also carries guns too. It's a small privately owned gas station and this is certainly not the norm. There is no law that says you have to have just a gun store to sell ammo or even guns for that matter.
Unless a gas station selling ammo is completely different from a gas station selling ammo, he just disproved what you said

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