Why does the default theme use XHTML?

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ElbertF
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by ElbertF »

We are no experts? :)

I think your question of why phpBB chose for XHTML has been answered, whether you agree with it or not.

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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by SamG »

The problem here isn't opinions or even lack of facts. We're just not communicating, for whatever reason.

So with all due respect, my last comment, to address this:
hm2k wrote:Let's face it, there's no experts advising you to use XHTML 1.0, so why use it, when there's experts advising you to use HTML 4.01?
There are experts advocating the replacement of HTML with XML. There are a lot of them. They have been involved in lengthy discussions and comment processes, in revisions, and all that documentation is pretty much freely available, from public mailing lists to all the material published by the W3C.

Whatever the internal politics (and clearly internal politics exist), the W3C as a standards body recommend XHTML. That was the point of bringing up the W3C in the first place. It is simply untrue that there are no experts advocating the use of XHTML.
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by hm2k »

Neither of you can give me a definitive answer anyway, so what does it matter?

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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by SamG »

You're either unwilling or unable to see a definitive answer in all that has already been written in this topic alone, so why trouble you with anything more I might have to say? phpBB's use of XHTML isn't about blind upgrading, about technical ignorance, or anything else. The explanation has been given, and given adequately, even definitively. You're free to disagree, but in all fairness, you can't reasonably say no definitive answer has been given. If you insist on doing that, you're just engaging in a verbal brawl -- all the more reason for me, personally, to say no more.
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by Kellanved »

The default theme uses strict XHTML 1.0 to be be compatible to future developments, easily readable on mobile devices and to make a statement about abiding to web standards. It takes several years to get a new version to maturity; we (not me personally, I came along later) placed out bets on XHTML and it doesn't look like we were wrong - for generated content it is IMO superior.

Anyhow, I really see little merit in the discussion now; it went on for real back in 2004. Going XML is a move we took for good reasons. It's a done deal and the result works fine.
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ElbertF
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by ElbertF »

This article was just posted on SitePoint, have a read. :)

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/html-o ... -it-matter

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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by hm2k »

The conclusion is pretty much this...
This article has sought to show that the move back from XHTML 1 to HTML 4 was a retrograde step. I’ve demonstrated how there is value in using XHTML, even if only some browsers can truly benefit from it, and this continues to underpin my belief that XHTML is better than HTML 4.
It's just a shame it wasn't written by someone who is an expert in something other than javascript, otherwise I might have taken more notice to the rest of it.

Is no more than just another opinion, no better of an opinion than that of the phpBB developers.

The trial continues...

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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by Phil »

It is also no better of an opinion than yours, or any of your "experts".

The fact of the matter is this is turning solely into a war over opinion and personal preference. The decision was made, and I do not see it being changed in the future. It's a matter of what's done is done -- the team, as Kellanved said, considered their options and made the choice they made for numerous reasons -- no use arguing about it.
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by hm2k »

There's a whole post in this thread dedicated to established experts in this area who recommend HTML over XHTML, I'm not going over it again.

Please feel free to come back to me when you find articles written by established experts that recommend XHTML over HTML, I'd be very interested in seeing those.

And if you can't, well, Kellanved said it best...
Kellanved wrote:I really see little merit in the discussion now; it went on for real back in 2004. Going XML is a move we took for good reasons. It's a done deal and the result works fine.

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Techie-Micheal
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by Techie-Micheal »

Show me something from 2008. You state that nothing has changed since 2002, but you are no expert. But when we say that the developers chose and explained their reasons, you claim we are not experts and you continue to post drivel. In the end, if you don't like it, build your own style with HTML 4.01.
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Highway of Life
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by Highway of Life »

Should you use XHTML or HTML?
That really depends on who you ask and what you need. You have said that *only* experts condone using HTML over XHTML, of course implying that *everybody* on the development team at .com are not experts. Oh really?

One thing you have to ask yourself is what kind of content am I delivering and who am I delivering it to? If you have users who browser your site with non-Computer devices such as phones, PDA's, and other hand-helds, then you’d need to use XHTML.

XHTML has the added benefit of using the very powerful XML language, offering countless possibilities with content delivery and delivery methods. XHTML is often a preferred method, there is no technical reason to use HTML over XHTML, but some would debate that there is no technical reason to use XHTML over HTML. -- It goes back to what kind of content you are trying to deliver, who you are trying to deliver to, and how.

If you feel that HTML is a better method for you after weighing the options, then go with HTML, but don’t try to push it on others who choose to use XHTML for their own reasons, and good reasons we do have for using XHTML.

A common myth is that XHTML is not compliant or compatible with IE7 or 8. This is simply untrue. It renders XHTML correctly (and therefore compatible), but IE has problems with the XHTML namespace and is not supported by IE. This just simply means that IE will see the document as generic XML, it will still display fine, but there are specific rules to follow, such as using display:block for block-level elements. Although this is not really out of the ordinary for designers, Web 2.0 Designers are quite used to building sites that use explicit statements and hacking IE6, IE7, and eventually IE8 to be as compliant as other browsers.

What should you do?
XHTML 1.1 isn’t logical to use because Microsoft decided not to support the future of XHTML (a very poor decision, in many people’s opinion), but XHTML 1.0 Transitional or Strict work just fine on IE, and it’s usage is encouraged. Use what is best for you, we will use what is best for us, we decided a long time ago to use the newer XHTML 1.0 Strict standard for prosilver, and I believe the decision was well grounded and has a very promising future.
There will be future developments with XHTML and HTML, and XHTML promises to easily be compatible with the future of the web, whereas HTML has it’s limitations in the area of future compatibility.
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topdown
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by topdown »

Well stated Highway of Life

XHTML strict ensures proper layout, coding and browser compatibility both in the future of browsers and the past browsers. If it is not valid code than 99% of the time will not display correctly, which is why all code should be validated to begin with.

A little quote on the XHTML subject from W3C
XHTML is a stricter and cleaner version of HTML.

We have reached a point where many pages on the WWW contain "bad" HTML.

XML is a markup language where everything has to be marked up correctly, which results in "well-formed" documents.

XML was designed to describe data and HTML was designed to display data.

Today's market consists of different browser technologies, some browsers run Internet on computers, and some browsers run Internet on mobile phones and hand helds. The last-mentioned do not have the resources or power to interpret a "bad" markup language.

Therefore - by combining HTML and XML, and their strengths, we got a markup language that is useful now and in the future - XHTML.

XHTML pages can be read by all XML enabled devices AND while waiting for the rest of the world to upgrade to XML supported browsers, XHTML gives you the opportunity to write "well-formed" documents now, that work in all browsers and that are backward browser compatible !!!
  • XHTML stands for EXtensible HyperText Markup Language
  • XHTML is aimed to replace HTML
  • XHTML is almost identical to HTML 4.01
  • XHTML is a stricter and cleaner version of HTML
  • XHTML is HTML defined as an XML application
  • XHTML is a W3C Recommendation
What it comes down to is you can use what you want, but to ensure the usefulness of your documents in the future they should be XHTML Strict or transitional at a minimum just for sake of updating to future web standards.

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Highway of Life
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Re: Why does the default theme use XHTML?

Post by Highway of Life »

In addition, while I wouldn’t completely discourage the usage of HTML (there are merits) using HTML Strict Doctype would absolutely be preferable as it would be more compatible with future developments of HTML and is a cleaner standard.

Of course, all this discussion becomes a bit pointless unless the pages that you develop are not XHTML or HTML compliant. If the page doesn’t validate, then you have other problems that need to be dealt with.
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