Attitude

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arod-1
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Attitude

Post by arod-1 »

The phpbb community has a bad name as far as attitude goes.
Some of it is justified and some of it is overblown, but this thread clearly demonstrates why and how the community earned this name.
Here comes a user (not even a phpbb board operator: just someone who registered to a phpbb-based board), and voices an absolutely legitimate concern.
Personally, i do not share his concern, not because I do not think he is right, only because I do not place that much value in buletin-board "identities": when I operated a board myself, It was open to anonymous posts (a practice that admittedly have became increasingly challenged by spammers, but that's a different story).

However, I think It would just be foolish to argue that the question of sending plain password over email is a "non-issue".

What amazes me is the knee-jerk reaction of team members (and some users) alike: not one of you guys even stopped to consider whether this criticism has any merit at all. You just flocked like a mindless mob to the "defense" of your beloved package.

Well, the days where phpbb required such avid and non-questioning defense are over by many years.
You have nothing to be afraid of. In this day and age, admitting that there might be a problem here would not detract anything from phpbb.

I did not see a single person (this is a long thread, so maybe i missed one or two posts) that tries to acknowledge that there might be an issue here, let alone suggesting a constructive solution to this issue.

I did not think long and hard about the issue and possible solutions, but just as an instance: adding a single configuration question to ACP ("Send unencrypted password on registration welcome email" or somesuch) would be easy and simple to implement.

I am not saying something like this *should* be implemented, but people, in a 4-pages long thread, there is nothing but bashing the OP and denying that there even might be a problem here, where clearly there *is* an issue.

Remember: denial is not a river in Egypt.

Your knee-jerk reaction to jump to the defense of phpbb whenever any criticism is voiced, without even stopping to consider if this criticism might have any merit is what gives the phpbb community its bad rep as a vicious and vitriol environment.

To summarize: Please lighten up your attitude(s).

[EDIT]
this message was written as (one of the) last one on http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... &t=1588455 before that thread got locked. The context of my comments is that other thread.
[/Edit]
Last edited by arod-1 on Tue May 12, 2009 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RMcGirr83
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Re: Attitude

Post by RMcGirr83 »

arod-1 wrote:I did not see a single person (this is a long thread, so maybe i missed one or two posts) that tries to acknowledge that there might be an issue here, let alone suggesting a constructive solution to this issue.
Ermmm, I disagree with this point, the OP was instructed to edit the email text file and remove the password entry if it was a problem...I would think it can't get much simpler than that, can it?

Not sure what good that will do because the OP is actually a user at a forum and not an admin of one, IIRC.

Other than that, sure people take pride and get defensive especially after putting in a ton of work on any project. Whether that be with phpBB or with raising kids (eg, "my kid is awesome and if you say otherwise I will pop you in the mouth") or whatever. Human nature I suppose and yes, I am guilty of it as well. :shrug:
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Re: Password return in clear at registration

Post by 3Di »

arod-1 wrote:The phpbb community has a bad name as far as attitude goes.
Some of it is justified and some of it is overblown, but this thread clearly demonstrates why and how the community earned this name.
Here comes a user (not even a phpbb board operator: just someone who registered to a phpbb-based board), and voices an absolutely legitimate concern.
Personally, i do not share his concern, not because I do not think he is right, only because I do not place that much value in buletin-board "identities": when I operated a board myself, It was open to anonymous posts (a practice that admittedly have became increasingly challenged by spammers, but that's a different story).

However, I think It would just be foolish to argue that the question of sending plain password over email is a "non-issue".

What amazes me is the knee-jerk reaction of team members (and some users) alike: not one of you guys even stopped to consider whether this criticism has any merit at all. You just flocked like a mindless mob to the "defense" of your beloved package.

Well, the days where phpbb required such avid and non-questioning defense are over by many years.
You have nothing to be afraid of. In this day and age, admitting that there might be a problem here would not detract anything from phpbb.

I did not see a single person (this is a long thread, so maybe i missed one or two posts) that tries to acknowledge that there might be an issue here, let alone suggesting a constructive solution to this issue.

I did not think long and hard about the issue and possible solutions, but just as an instance: adding a single configuration question to ACP ("Send unencrypted password on registration welcome email" or somesuch) would be easy and simple to implement.

I am not saying something like this *should* be implemented, but people, in a 4-pages long thread, there is nothing but bashing the OP and denying that there even might be a problem here, where clearly there *is* an issue.

Remember: denial is not a river in Egypt.

Your knee-jerk reaction to jump to the defense of phpbb whenever any criticism is voiced, without even stopping to consider if this criticism might have any merit is what gives the phpbb community its bad rep as a vicious and vitriol environment.

To summarize: Please lighten up your attitude(s).
completely agreed.
RMcGirr83 wrote:Other than that, sure people take pride and get defensive especially after putting in a ton of work on any project. Whether that be with phpBB or with raising kids (eg, "my kid is awesome and if you say otherwise I will pop you in the mouth") or whatever. Human nature I suppose and yes, I am guilty of it as well.
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Re: Password return in clear at registration

Post by Eelke »

Although I completely agree there is nothing wrong with admitting there might be a problem, I think it is unfair to say that this is standard issue with the phpBB community. In fact, I think people are usually pretty level headed when it comes to well formulated and modest criticism.

If I may quote a part of the first post:
I just sign on a PHPbb board and I was very surprise to see my password in clear in the
confirmation message from the new forum. After a short discussion with the admin of the
forum, he tell me this is a regular features of PHPbb and he can't do nothing to fix behaviors.

So, I'm here to find explanation about the minding behind this lack of basic security.
If there is an issue to begin with, this way of stating it is blowing the issue out of proportion before it is even established. It is basically saying, your entire community consists of morons, because you are accepting what is obviously an enormous problem. No further response of the OP has tried to put some perspective into their argument. To the contrary, in fact. No wonder there is a strong reaction.
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Re: Attitude

Post by narqelion »

RMcGirr83 wrote:Other than that, sure people take pride and get defensive especially after putting in a ton of work on any project. Whether that be with phpBB or with raising kids (eg, "my kid is awesome and if you say otherwise I will pop you in the mouth") or whatever. Human nature I suppose and yes, I am guilty of it as well. :shrug:
Human nature maybe, but one of the baser instincts to be sure. The thing is, phpBB is not a child it's a bunch of code and it doesn't have feelings to get hurt. Getting offended on "it's behalf" is silly. The best friends phpBB can ever have are ones that speak the truth and do not get caught up in the whole fanboy syndrome where the app is perfect and every flaw is considered a "feature." I have to agree with the OP in that the *fanboys* tend to swarm whenever anything negative (aka anything not gushing with admiration) is posted. Pride & ego have no place in software development, sit through one code review with your peers and any ego you had will be left in tatters. :P My first software project manager taught me to never get emotionally invested in any work product and that the best software engineers were always their own harshest critics. When someone finds a fault in your code or voices a differing perspective on how to code it, don't get angry and pop them in the mouth, say thank you. :)
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Re: Attitude

Post by Techie-Micheal »

narqelion wrote:
RMcGirr83 wrote:Other than that, sure people take pride and get defensive especially after putting in a ton of work on any project. Whether that be with phpBB or with raising kids (eg, "my kid is awesome and if you say otherwise I will pop you in the mouth") or whatever. Human nature I suppose and yes, I am guilty of it as well. :shrug:
Human nature maybe, but one of the baser instincts to be sure. The thing is, phpBB is not a child it's a bunch of code and it doesn't have feelings to get hurt. Getting offended on "it's behalf" is silly. The best friends phpBB can ever have are ones that speak the truth and do not get caught up in the whole fanboy syndrome where the app is perfect and every flaw is considered a "feature." I have to agree with the OP in that the *fanboys* tend to swarm whenever anything negative (aka anything not gushing with admiration) is posted. Pride & ego have no place in software development, sit through one code review with your peers and any ego you had will be left in tatters. :P My first software project manager taught me to never get emotionally invested in any work product and that the best software engineers were always their own harshest critics. When someone finds a fault in your code or voices a differing perspective on how to code it, don't get angry and pop them in the mouth, say thank you. :)
I'm not saying it is okay to be rude, nor am I particularly familiar with what went on in the topic at hand (arod-1 never really mentioned which topic ..., just gave an example of a topic ...), but when you spend as much time on a project as I and others have, it is easy to think of software as your child. That said, I haven't seen any fanboyism lately. There's a difference between trying to make sure someone understands why something is and being rude about it, which it seems the former is the case rather than the latter.
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Re: Attitude

Post by wGEric »

It almost sounds like you guys want the developers to always act like they are wrong. That isn't the case. Developers love to hear constructive criticism but if you are the one providing the criticism you must be prepared to admit you are wrong. The phpBB Developers are extremely talented and smart. They think of every possibility and come up with what they think is the best solution. They are a developer for a reason.

If you actually take the time to listen to their reasoning you will learn a lot about not only phpBB but programming in general. When giving suggestions take the time to explain your reasoning behind it and to listen to what the developers say. Often the developer thinks of something that you missed.

How you present the suggestion is a big part of it as well. It has been covered but you need to remember that the developers have spent hours working on the project. When you come in and act like they are a bunch of idiots then of course they are going to close off.
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Re: Attitude

Post by narqelion »

Techie-Micheal wrote:I'm not saying it is okay to be rude, nor am I particularly familiar with what went on in the topic at hand (arod-1 never really mentioned which topic ..., just gave an example of a topic ...), but when you spend as much time on a project as I and others have, it is easy to think of software as your child.
I have no idea what went on in the topic linked to, but was merely seconding the OP's comment (see arod-1 quote below) of the perception that is out there. As "outsiders" we most certainly have a different perception than those of you "insiders" who as you say, can easily lose objectivity when it comes to a project you have worked on personally. My response to Rich's quote was merely to point out that what is, is not necessarily right. ;)
arod-1 wrote:Your knee-jerk reaction to jump to the defense of phpbb whenever any criticism is voiced, without even stopping to consider if this criticism might have any merit is what gives the phpbb community its bad rep as a vicious and vitriol environment.
wGEric wrote:It almost sounds like you guys want the developers to always act like they are wrong. That isn't the case. Developers love to hear constructive criticism but if you are the one providing the criticism you must be prepared to admit you are wrong. The phpBB Developers are extremely talented and smart. They think of every possibility and come up with what they think is the best solution. They are a developer for a reason.
Eric, thank you for replying with this post, you just proved the OP point. For some reason you felt the need to post and defend the developers, whom no one in this topic has attacked. :D So you can see that even this topic triggered a defensive reaction from you. There was no need for you to leap to the developers defense here, from what I've seen personally the developers are rarely the ones with the knee-jerk reactions, if a topic lasts long enough for them to engage in it and the OP had a valid point they usually acknowledge it graciously. The issue is really with your defensive front line, they swarm at the first hint of criticism or dissent. Exhibit A would be this topic:

http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... &t=1291065

If you read through you can see it's a miracle the OP persisted long enough to get to page 2 where the first acknowledgement that the poster might have a valid point was made. Every response until then was either dripping in condescension or sarcasm or consisted of "you're wrong" , "there is no point to this topic" etc etc
Is it such a surprise to you that constructive criticism is so inhibited here? Sadly not everyone is passionate enough to persist and push a topic to resolution like the example I gave. Many are chased off with the initial dismissive responses. The sycophants won't make your product better, your critics will. :)
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Re: Attitude

Post by Kim_Possible »

narqelion wrote:Eric, thank you for replying with this post, you just proved the OP point. For some reason you felt the need to post and defend the developers, whom no one in this topic has attacked.
I don't know. Calling them mindless sounds a bit like an attack. ;)
narqelion wrote:If you read through you can see it's a miracle the OP persisted long enough to get to page 2 where the first acknowledgement that the poster might have a valid point was made. Every response until then was either dripping in condescension or sarcasm or consisted of "you're wrong" , "there is no point to this topic" etc etc
This is the same claim the OP in this thread made, and it isn't the least bit true with the email password issue. The very first post in response to the OPs linked thread was this:
Kellanved wrote:The reminder is mostly there to avoid admins who have locked themselves out during the installation procedure by mistyping the password. Passwords can be easily changed after the installation.
If you do not want the sending out of your password, then you can alter the email templates found in the language directory to not include the password.

Once entered, the passwords are stored as phpass hashes in the database; not in plaintext.
Cheers,
~H
It explained why passwords are handled they way they are, gave a suggestion as to how to change the behavior of the software, gave a suggestion on how to minimize the risk posed by the default behavior, and also demonstrated why (in one opinion) the worry was unfounded.

Horribly mindless and knee-jerk . . .

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Re: Attitude

Post by wGEric »

narqelion wrote:Eric, thank you for replying with this post, you just proved the OP point. For some reason you felt the need to post and defend the developers, whom no one in this topic has attacked. :D So you can see that even this topic triggered a defensive reaction from you.
Reasoning behind my post is code was mentioned in this topic. When you talk about code and phpBB it is the developers that write it.

Is this topic mostly about how Team Members or non Team Members respond?
narqelion wrote:Exhibit A would be this topic:

http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... &t=1291065
From that topic
lifestylemaster wrote:I think that the phpBB template author don't know HTML/XHTML.
The topic started with "You are wrong and you don't know XHTML." Nothing else. Can you see why people react the way they do? I'm not defending their actions because they were wrong. I'm trying to say that how you present your suggestions has a big impact on how they will be received.

Had the OP said something like "I was looking through prosilver and noticed that the hierarchy in the HTML isn't done very well. It should be done like this for this and this reason." it would have been received a lot better.


I believe that both sides could do a better job of handling issues like the ones mentioned here. I want to make sure that both sides are equally heard.
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Re: Attitude

Post by Dog Cow »

arod-1 wrote: What amazes me is the knee-jerk reaction of team members (and some users) alike: not one of you guys even stopped to consider whether this criticism has any merit at all. You just flocked like a mindless mob to the "defense" of your beloved package.
I recognize this fact and keep it in mind every time I make a post here. Sometimes I just decide not to make a post and I'm always glad that I did when I come back later and see that the topic has "heated up."

You have to realize what everyone's reaction is going to be and compensate for it by wording your post accordingly or just not posting at all. It takes awhile to learn, though.
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Re: Attitude

Post by SamG »

"Outsiders" as critics and their supporters seem to like to suppose that a certain inherent objectivity goes with the turf. And I suppose I get that, but I think it's an overblown advantage. An appearance of objectivity could be the result of ignorance as well as reason. I think that's precisely the case in a lot of criticism of the phpBB 3.0 feature set, for example.

In any case, suppose I grant that the actual community response in the topic to which arod-1 responded was unnecessarily negative. I have no problem doing that since I actually think that to have been the case. Suppose I grant further that that situation arises far too often. I also have no problem doing that.

And?

arod-1 has been around here long enough to know that supporters of phpBB aren't the only people capable of seriously bad attitudes. Those people are just a lot harder to hold accountable in discussions like this because they aren't a community. Where would one legitimately go to gripe about the gripers? I have no idea. It's easy to come here and post about bad attitudes at phpBB.com; it's an easy target. There's nothing remotely similar available to me if I want to beef about the drive-by shooters.

To be fair, level-headed give and take here at phpBB.com isn't nonexistent. I've seen people say, "Hey, thanks for listening!" Credit where credit is due, and I for one appreciate arod-1 being careful to avoid extremism up front.

And?

Year after year we have enough bad attitudes to go around, I think. People all over with nothing better to do than to say, "phpBB suxors." People here (makes no difference what position they're taking, it seems to me; bad attitudes aren't respecters of persons) who presume they hold some sort of monoploy on reason and clear thinking and aren't afraid to show it. Critics who almost never criticize themselves when they're shown to have missed the call in a given situation. (Where are all those now who just couldn't restrain themselves from comparing phpBB 3 and Duke Nukem Forever? Helping out in the support forum?) Maybe that's just the nature of it all and we just have to buck up and take it. Until somebody -- I don't care whose side they're on -- really shows me consistent balance over time, I'm going to assume that to be the case.

For example, to bolster the criticism narqelion points out that "phpBB is not a child it's a bunch of code and it doesn't have feelings to get hurt." True enough, as far as it goes. But phpBB is a bunch of code in the same sense that the Linux kernel is a bunch of code. So the next move becomes less sturdy I think: "Getting offended on 'it's behalf' is silly." Perhaps. Perhaps not. It depends, and legitimately so, I think.

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Re: Attitude

Post by arod-1 »

Techie-Micheal wrote: ....nor am I particularly familiar with what went on in the topic at hand (arod-1 never really mentioned which topic ..., just gave an example of a topic ...), but when you spend as much time on a project as I and others have, it is easy to think of software as your child. That said, I haven't seen any fanboyism lately. There's a difference between trying to make sure someone understands why something is and being rude about it, which it seems the former is the case rather than the latter.
Michael, please note that i did not merely "mentioned" a thread. My message was actually written on this other thread and was split by a moderator when this other thread got locked. As soon as I noticed it i edited my message and provided a link. Please view this other thread to see what am I talking about.

As to style: it is my opinion that when a justified criticism is heard, to dismiss it because the person that voiced it is perceived as being rude is just counter-productive. who are you "punishing"? the product can gain from considering the criticism seriously regardless of the question of how courteous was the OP (or any other poster along the way).

To the point in question: the original complain (see the linked thread) was that phpbb by default sends the "Welcome" message with the password unencrypted, and the OP claimed that this behavior is wrong, from security consideration. One can argue how serious the problem is, but IMO it is just silly to claim that this is a non-issue.
Furthermore, it is my understanding that phpbb dev-team share the view that this is sub-optimal behavior, and i was led to understand that 3.2's behavior is different in this area, in part because of this view.

It would have been very simple and easy for anyone in the know to tell the OP something like: "Yes, you are right. We changed the behavior in upstream version, namely 3.2. However, we do not think that the issue is problematic enough to justify change in 3.0. Any operator that deem this issue serious enough to merit a change should do it herself by editing the file StyleXXXX/template/email/welcome.txt and remove the {PASSWORD} token"

Simple, easy and courteous.
instead, there are 4 pages of posts denying that the issue even exists, telling the OP that "he doesn't get it", criticizing his style/manners/behavior/wording (if you'll read it, it's very clear that English is not his first language), and doing anything and everything except admitting that there might be a real issue here.

Now, I don't personally care all that much about the issue of sending clear passwords over email, but I do care about the community, and since I think that this kind of response is somewhat typical, I decided to voice my view.

and @Techie: Please read the linked thread and ask again if there is or isn't unreasonable amount of "fanboyism" in it. if you think not, then we certainly do not agree on that point.

@SamG: You have been here even longer than me. When I talk about "Attitude" I do not mean to say "Hey, don't be so rude". I mean to say: "Hey, by arguing that phpbb is perfect even when a real issue is heard, we miss a lot of chances to improve it. Denying a real problem does not punish those who complained, it punishes the people who want to make it better. "

Look, for instance at the reaction of wgEric in this very thread to a real issue (old thread about wrong use of html tags in prosilver): Eric, in effect says: "Hey, you insulted us (by saying that the author "does not know html"), so we choose to ignore/deny your criticism, and try to argue that you are wrong, regardless of whether there is a real issue here" (there is a real issue, *and* it's true that the OP used poor phrasing). this is exactly the fanboy attitude i am talking about. who the @#^&! care about the style of the OP? we should concentrate on considering the critique level-headed, even if the OP was a hothead.
Focusing on the style of the OP on one hand, and denying real issues on the other does not work, IMHO, in favor of what we all care about, which is the overall quality of the package. This is exactly what my first post is about.
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Re: Attitude

Post by SamG »

I get your point. Be open to legitimate criticism. But that's not so clear cut as you make it, it seems to me, making it easy to get sidetracked.

Someone says, "I don't think passing passwords in plain text in confirmation e-mails is the best idea, and here's why." I follow all that. Someone says the same thing and then appends trash talk in some sort of effort to make the argument stronger, and I get lost. You suggest we should always be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, but which is the real criticism here; that passing plain text passwords via e-mail seems an odd thing to do in a presumably security conscious product, or that passing plain text passwords via e-mail is very possibly a troublesome indicator of deeper problems? Developers who don't get the "obvious" problem with putting passwords in e-mail are subject to doubt on the finer points of security, are they not? Where does the real argument end and the ad homs which you insist we ignore really begin?

Since I've already agreed that community response was unnecessarily negative, I use that topic only to illustrate why I think you and I can evaluate the same conversation differently and that we might as well just see that as part of the dynamic even among people with the best intentions. We will make mistakes if we respond to "unclear" complaints, almost certainly. The best we can hope for is to hold ourselves to the reasonable expectation that we avoid egregious mistakes and to own up when we mess up. Since the original discussion was in fact carried out by somebody who seemed not completely comfortable with English I think it especially important to be quicker to listen than to speak. Even so, I'm not entirely satisfied that I understand what the real complaint is, so am not entirely sure what an appropriate response should have looked like. As I indicated in a followup discussion, I don't understand what appears to me to be a plain inconsistency in the whole argument.

In any case, I accept your suggestion for a correct response as better than what we had and will leave it at that.
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Re: Attitude

Post by arod-1 »

Maybe flogging a dead horse, but here's a story for you, Sam:
A nice spring day, a two-lane narrow country road, and this guy is driving his beloved Porsche, Radio blasting, cruising somewhat above posted speed limit.
As he nears a curve in the road, a woman driving a Prius coming the other way (below the speed limit), and just as they pass each other she shouts at him: "Pig!".
Naturally he feels hurt: "what did I do to Her?" so he sticks his head out of the window, screams at the top of his lungs after her "COW!", takes the curve and hits the pig.
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