How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Do not post support requests, bug reports or feature requests. Discuss phpBB here. Non-phpBB related discussion goes in General Discussion!
Scam Warning
User avatar
stevemaury
Support Team Member
Support Team Member
Posts: 50812
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:21 am
Location: The U.P.
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by stevemaury » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:43 pm

And as this is no longer a support topic, if it ever was, I am moving to Discussion.
For REALLY good and VERY inexpensive hosting CLICK HERE

I can stop all your spam. I can upgrade or update your Board. PM or email me. (Paid support)

movedtoomuch
Registered User
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:55 pm

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by movedtoomuch » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:35 pm

Discussion, support, question, opinion. Either or the other.

What does turning off IP SESSION VALIDATION accomplish? Would that help with the issue of not storing IP addresses anywhere?

We are not a company that is subject to some of these recent government mandatad policies. And even though somebody might still think we are, I will deal with that risk.

narqelion
I've Been Banned!
Posts: 7235
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by narqelion » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:05 pm

movedtoomuch wrote:What does turning off IP SESSION VALIDATION accomplish?
Nothing really. Read my reply in this post and you will have a basic understanding of why it's not particularly effective as a security check anymore. :)
movedtoomuch wrote:Would that help with the issue of not storing IP addresses anywhere?
No. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with your request. If you read through the first topic I linked to that explains how to not log IP's you will see it was the the reason given for that MOD not being approved to the database here. I merely mentioned it in response to Exreation's comment to read the last post, where the topic was locked. Everything after that was an extremely unfair hijacking of your technical question by people who seemed to assume you were asking "what do you think about this approach" as opposed to "how do I..." and for that I apologize. If you have not yet read the topic I first linked for you, please do as it answers your question directly. :)

User avatar
Techie-Micheal
Security Consultant
Posts: 19511
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:11 am
Location: In your servers

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:40 pm

narqelion wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:Funny you should mention e-discovery. Part of e-discovery is that you are required to keep that information.
Actually that is not correct. Unless as a business or agency mandated by federal regs you are able to define you own records retention policy, I should know as I spent the better part of 2007 in CT with the corporate legal dept crafting the IT retention and archival property for all non-financial systems in my company. This process in my company was a direct result of litigation initiated by us against a former employee and the only requirement is that you have clearly defined retention periods and follow them. E-discovery itself is just the normal discovery process as applied to electronic records. :)
Techie-Micheal wrote:Second, HIPAA, Sarbanes-Oaxley (SOX) and FINRA regulations require that many documents must be retained for several years.
Did you not read my post? :P
Yes. Did you read mine?
narqelion wrote:@movedtoomuch, I commend you for being far sighted enough to protect yourself in this manner, it is much more common than you would think and unless your activities are regulated under regs like sarbanes-oxley or jsox where specific records retention policies are mandated, the less records you keep the better off you are. :)
EXreaction wrote:Either way it's completely useless without your own self managed dedicated server as there are other logs that can be used to track what IP address was used to make a certain post easily.
Not really, not tying a specific IP to a specific post directly is all that matters here and all the OP is asking for. :)
Techie-Micheal wrote:You don't log anything by your own admission, so how do you know for sure?
Where do you get that idea? I said I don't use IP session validation. ;)
narqelion wrote:Personally I have IP session validation disabled, always have even going back to when I used IPB.
As I already explained, not keeping those records at all is no longer a valid excuse. Yes, unless you fall under SOX, HIPPA, and others, you are free to come up with your own data retention policies, but not keeping the data in the first place is no longer acceptable. I know, I've been there. Now, if you wish to continue to argue, be my guest, but telling someone that it is acceptable to ignore those rules when it clearly isn't is not cool.
movedtoomuch wrote:If you have ever been involved in a legal action, all kinds of information can come forth, much of which is not illegal, but instead uncomfortable and difficult. If one does not HAVE the information, one can not release it. Pretty simple stuff I thought.
You are correct, it is simple. Some people here, as you have now discovered for yourself, are presumptuous enough to think they know more about your situation than you do, just ignore them. :D
Being rude isn't very nice.
Proven Offensive Security Expertise. OSCP - GXPN

Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Pony99CA » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:02 pm

narqelion wrote:Some people here, as you have now discovered for yourself, are presumptuous enough to think they know more about your situation than you do, just ignore them. :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Coming from somebody who claimed that
99.99% of civil suits here in the US are frivolous greed mongering
and
What is the core motivation for most of those civil actions you listed? $$$ Why could they not be settled without involving the courts? $$$ What are the damages being sought, $$$ Greed, pure and simple. It always seems to come down to money.
I don't think you should be making that claim.

While I agree that many lawsuits are greedy, I wouldn't claim that 99.99% are. Furthermore, seeking money justly owed isn't greedy, and many divorce cases involve child custody, not just money.

You really should quit while you're behind. :roll:

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.

Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Pony99CA » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:08 pm

EXreaction wrote:Either way it's completely useless without your own self managed dedicated server as there are other logs that can be used to track what IP address was used to make a certain post easily.
Is that true? I'm curious what logs would tell that? Can they tell more than IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx accessed posting.php at a certain time (and may or may not have posted)?

My Web host only seems to let me download 24 hours of log data. Are you saying that they have more archived somewhere else?

Just curious (and trying to get back on topic ;)).

Also, even if they have that data, unless nobody else uses that IP address, could somebody prove who used that PC? I think that would be a tall order in a multi-person household.

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.

Roberdin
Registered User
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:56 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Roberdin » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:29 pm

I am aware someone has already scorned amateur lawyers -- but I believe that when you sign up for a residential internet connection, a contractual term stipulates that you personally take full responsibility for how it is used, including by anyone else in your household. Virgin Media's internet terms states this at least twice. (Of course, I don't know if the legality of that term has ever been tested, and it doubtlessly varies by jurisdiction.)

Your webhost would probably record more than the query string, (i.e., /forums/posting.php?mode=...) but probably also POST data (i.e., the contents of the form). Certainty, I expect Internet Service Providers routinely do this in many jurisdictions.
Roberdin

arod-1
Registered User
Posts: 1327
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:33 pm

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by arod-1 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:52 pm

Techie-Micheal wrote:As I already explained, not keeping those records at all is no longer a valid excuse. Yes, unless you fall under SOX, HIPPA, and others, you are free to come up with your own data retention policies, but not keeping the data in the first place is no longer acceptable. I know, I've been there. Now, if you wish to continue to argue, be my guest, but telling someone that it is acceptable to ignore those rules when it clearly isn't is not cool.
i am not sure i understand you correctly, so let me ask explicitly:
are you saying that keeping the poster's IP-address of every post made to a BBS is the legal obligation of the board operator?
this just does not sound right, and IANAL.
what does this say about the "prune old posts" functionality of phpbb? does this mean that it is illegal to prune, or just plain delete messages if i do not have a backup (remember: once you delete a post, the post itself might still be accessible through something like google cache or deja-news like engine, but the ip reference is gone with the row in your database)?

if this is so (which i find hard to believe), i think phpbb should contain some warnings in and around the settings that control pruning, and the action of deleting messages (and btw: what about PMs? is it ok to delete those?)

and if it is not illegal to delete posts without backup, i do not see how the statement above can be correct.

peace.
Last edited by arod-1 on Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
standard disclaimer:
backup your db and files before you do anything.
absolutely no guarantee.
if you do what i advise and it blows in your face, all you'll hear from me is: "ah... sorry, i guess"

User avatar
Dog Cow
Registered User
Posts: 2494
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:14 am
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Dog Cow » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:54 pm

Roberdin wrote: Your webhost would probably record more than the query string, (i.e., /forums/posting.php?mode=...) but probably also POST data (i.e., the contents of the form). Certainty, I expect Internet Service Providers routinely do this in many jurisdictions.
It's not usually done, logging POST data, because the log files would be so much longer. However, it can be done.
Moof!
Mac GUI Vault: Retro Apple II & Macintosh computing archive.
Inside Allerton bookMac GUIMac 512K Blog

Roberdin
Registered User
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:56 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Roberdin » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:56 pm

Dog Cow wrote:
Roberdin wrote: Your webhost would probably record more than the query string, (i.e., /forums/posting.php?mode=...) but probably also POST data (i.e., the contents of the form). Certainty, I expect Internet Service Providers routinely do this in many jurisdictions.
It's not usually done, logging POST data, because the log files would be so much longer. However, it can be done.
Nice work. Of course, that's merely the default Apache configuration, and the internet is a very public place to send data. ;)
Roberdin

User avatar
AdamR
Former Team Member
Posts: 9731
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida
Name: Adam Reyher
Contact:

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by AdamR » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:03 pm

Pony99CA wrote:Is that true? I'm curious what logs would tell that? Can they tell more than IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx accessed posting.php at a certain time (and may or may not have posted)?
Typical network infrastructure logs do not record that much data, though it could be done. That is usually left up to the server. However, NAT logs are most certainly kept on most, if not all, routers ranging from the data-center, to the ISP, to the backbone provider.

- Adam
phpBB Support: Welcome | Userguide | Knowledge Base | Search
Honored supporter of the phpBB Group!
"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton

User avatar
Techie-Micheal
Security Consultant
Posts: 19511
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:11 am
Location: In your servers

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:12 am

arod-1 wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:As I already explained, not keeping those records at all is no longer a valid excuse. Yes, unless you fall under SOX, HIPPA, and others, you are free to come up with your own data retention policies, but not keeping the data in the first place is no longer acceptable. I know, I've been there. Now, if you wish to continue to argue, be my guest, but telling someone that it is acceptable to ignore those rules when it clearly isn't is not cool.
i am not sure i understand you correctly, so let me ask explicitly:
are you saying that keeping the poster's IP-address of every post made to a BBS is the legal obligation of the board operator?
this just does not sound right, and IANAL.
what does this say about the "prune old posts" functionality of phpbb? does this mean that it is illegal to prune, or just plain delete messages if i do not have a backup (remember: once you delete a post, the post itself might still be accessible through something like google cache or deja-news like engine, but the ip reference is gone with the row in your database)?

if this is so (which i find hard to believe), i think phpbb should contain some warnings in and around the settings that control pruning, and the action of deleting messages (and btw: what about PMs? is it ok to delete those?)

and if it is not illegal to delete posts without backup, i do not see how the statement above can be correct.

peace.
You are twisting things. The discussion here is removing the functionality to have that IP address in the first place, not pruning things at a later date, which is part of data retention. Whether or not Google et al cache the posts is beyond your control other than setting the appropriate permissions. In your example of google having the cache and the post being gone, it is no longer on your server, so doing ediscovery on your server is pointless, isn't it?

I don't know if board owners are required to store the information for a certain amount of time, but I do know that if you are unable to produce the information being asked for because you never stored it in the first place, you will find trouble.
Proven Offensive Security Expertise. OSCP - GXPN

arod-1
Registered User
Posts: 1327
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:33 pm

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by arod-1 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:06 am

Techie-Micheal wrote:You are twisting things. The discussion here is removing the functionality to have that IP address in the first place, not pruning things at a later date, which is part of data retention. Whether or not Google et al cache the posts is beyond your control other than setting the appropriate permissions. In your example of google having the cache and the post being gone, it is no longer on your server, so doing ediscovery on your server is pointless, isn't it?

I don't know if board owners are required to store the information for a certain amount of time, but I do know that if you are unable to produce the information being asked for because you never stored it in the first place, you will find trouble.
so let me get it straight:
you are saying that i can delete the post (including the ip address) at any time i want and it's OK, but not saving the IP in the first place will get me in trouble?
as i mentioned earlier, IANAL, but if i understood you correctly (and it's a big "if") this sound completely twisted, and i am convinced completely devoid of reality.
standard disclaimer:
backup your db and files before you do anything.
absolutely no guarantee.
if you do what i advise and it blows in your face, all you'll hear from me is: "ah... sorry, i guess"

User avatar
Techie-Micheal
Security Consultant
Posts: 19511
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:11 am
Location: In your servers

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:24 am

arod-1 wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:You are twisting things. The discussion here is removing the functionality to have that IP address in the first place, not pruning things at a later date, which is part of data retention. Whether or not Google et al cache the posts is beyond your control other than setting the appropriate permissions. In your example of google having the cache and the post being gone, it is no longer on your server, so doing ediscovery on your server is pointless, isn't it?

I don't know if board owners are required to store the information for a certain amount of time, but I do know that if you are unable to produce the information being asked for because you never stored it in the first place, you will find trouble.
so let me get it straight:
you are saying that i can delete the post (including the ip address) at any time i want and it's OK, but not saving the IP in the first place will get me in trouble?
as i mentioned earlier, IANAL, but if i understood you correctly (and it's a big "if") this sound completely twisted, and i am convinced completely devoid of reality.
You are storing the content that has the lawyer's interest, but instead of cooperating, you are protecting someone, right or wrong. That is why you would get in trouble. How about you remove the content that is questionable if you are so worried about legal threats?

There's nothing devoid of reality here.
Proven Offensive Security Expertise. OSCP - GXPN

arod-1
Registered User
Posts: 1327
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:33 pm

Re: How Do I Delete Any Record of IP Logging?

Post by arod-1 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:28 am

Techie-Micheal wrote:You are storing the content that has the lawyer's interest, but instead of cooperating, you are protecting someone, right or wrong.
?????
what does it mean "instead of cooperating"?
is there any clause of the law that says i should keep the ip-address?
i think you are confused. i can keep whatever it is i decide to keep, unless there is a specific law or regulation that describes what i should keep. if i operate a "normal" bbs, the law does not specify what i should keep or for how long i should keep it.

i think you simply made some wrong assertion earlier, and now you are making completely bogus arguments to defend it.
the reality is that the decision whether or not to store the ip address of someone who posted to my board is completely within my prerogative, and has nothing to do with "cooperating".
same goes for other details, such as the precise time of the post and indeed even the precise content of the post: specifically, in phpbb, i (the admin) can get in later and modify the post text without retaining the original text and even without keeping record of the mere fact that i did so.
if i do store it (the ip) and then refuse to give it to some lawyer, then i can be accused of "non-cooperation".
deciding what to store, before i was required for anything has nothing to do with cooperation. this is exactly what this thread is about.
standard disclaimer:
backup your db and files before you do anything.
absolutely no guarantee.
if you do what i advise and it blows in your face, all you'll hear from me is: "ah... sorry, i guess"

Post Reply

Return to “phpBB Discussion”