What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by igorw » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:08 pm

phpBB also used British English as default language. The language itself is called "British English", if we were to call it just "English" it might confuse or even upset some of those who are used to US-English.

As for calling the folder "en", the main reason for this is simplicity. And this makes it a lot easier for translators, developers, mod authors. They can just use "en" which is straight-forward, instead of having to remember that it's called "en_gb".

I don't see any reason to change the way it is.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:55 pm

eviL<3 wrote:phpBB also used British English as default language. The language itself is called "British English", if we were to call it just "English" it might confuse or even upset some of those who are used to US-English.

As for calling the folder "en", the main reason for this is simplicity. And this makes it a lot easier for translators, developers, mod authors. They can just use "en" which is straight-forward, instead of having to remember that it's called "en_gb".

I don't see any reason to change the way it is.
What does that matter if the only thing in there is called en_gb for language pack maintainers? What is there to remember?
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by igorw » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:50 pm

It's just more convenient. The remembering part was more aimed at the other two groups I listed.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:08 pm

eviL<3 wrote:It's just more convenient. The remembering part was more aimed at the other two groups I listed.
Sorry, but I still don't understand. Website maintainers adding MODs have to remember that it is en_us for when they want to make changes to MODs, how is that any different than MOD authors remembering it is en_gb when developing MODs?

Do you at least see my point here?
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Acyd Burn » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:30 pm

We allow the short form use by translators for their most-used language pack variant in their country and we do so too (for us it is the "this is our primary used language than most-used, because i never looked at actual figures).

Sure it makes no difference if it is now de-x-sie or en_EN-GB or whatever, but 1) i prefer a synonym for the main language (en, de, ru, etc. - not to confuse with TLD's please) and 2) a directory rename will not happen in an already released product, this would be a nightmare to maintain. ;)

I can see where you are coming from though, where you think your language is played down because we chose to make the British one "our" primary language. I can understand that - i also prefer US english if spoken, but british if written - but this is not about preference or to favour any flavour. ;)

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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:38 pm

Acyd Burn wrote:We allow the short form use by translators for their most-used language pack variant in their country and we do so too (for us it is the "this is our primary used language than most-used, because i never looked at actual figures).

Sure it makes no difference if it is now de-x-sie or en_EN-GB or whatever, but 1) i prefer a synonym for the main language (en, de, ru, etc. - not to confuse with TLD's please) and 2) a directory rename will not happen in an already released product, this would be a nightmare to maintain. ;)
I can see where you are coming from though, where you think your language is played down because we chose to make the British one "our" primary language. I can understand that - i also prefer US english if spoken, but british if written - but this is not about preference or to favour any flavour. ;)
Not really. I'm thinking more for consistency. Like you said earlier, de_du uses the shortcut de because it is the "main" German language pack. So why isn't it named de and not de_du? I don't have a problem with phpBB using en_gb as the default, I can write my own language pack. But what I'm not understanding is why it is named en. en, in my opinion and from what I've seen, is used to globally refer to en_us, en_gb, and various other en dialects/versions/etc.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Acyd Burn » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:54 pm

We do not check other language packs, but do you say the german language pack uses de_du as path? Or to what you are referring and what do you want to see changed in the core language pack while preserving the directory name "en".

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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:13 pm

Acyd Burn wrote:We do not check other language packs, but do you say the german language pack uses de_du as path? Or to what you are referring and what do you want to see changed in the core language pack while preserving the directory name "en".
That's what I'm referring to, I don't think it should have the directory name en, but instead en_gb as the directory name because en has multiple variations, but looking at the German language pack, I see it is de as the directory name, so I guess that's fine. :)
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by arod-1 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:38 pm

Techie-Micheal wrote: .....
I don't think it should have the directory name en, but instead en_gb as the directory name because en has multiple variations, but looking at the German language pack, I see it is de as the directory name, so I guess that's fine. :)
regardless of what would have been the right decision if we would start today from scratch, the cost of changing it now would be huge, and by no stretch of the imagination would the benefits (if any) match it.
there is a lot to say for "historic reasons". to this day the C language flag is O_CREAT [1]

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[1] urban legend has it that when someone asked Ken Thompson what he would change in C he came back with "I would have spelled it O_CREATE", as a flippant way of claiming perfection.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:38 pm

arod-1 wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote: .....
I don't think it should have the directory name en, but instead en_gb as the directory name because en has multiple variations, but looking at the German language pack, I see it is de as the directory name, so I guess that's fine. :)
regardless of what would have been the right decision if we would start today from scratch, the cost of changing it now would be huge, and by no stretch of the imagination would the benefits (if any) match it.
there is a lot to say for "historic reasons". to this day the C language flag is O_CREAT [1]

peace.
What costs would there be? This isn't a pivotal section of code that MODs or the core relies on. The cost should be no more than adding a language key that MOD authors need to add.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by arod-1 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:16 pm

Techie-Micheal wrote:What costs would there be? This isn't a pivotal section of code that MODs or the core relies on. The cost should be no more than adding a language key that MOD authors need to add.
i can and will spell it out for you, but first let me make sure i am not just wasting my time:
were you seriously asking this question? if so, did you spend two minutes trying to think through all the implications?
if the answers are "yes" for both these questions (i find it somewhat unlikely), i will explain.

peace.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Roberdin » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:01 pm

arod-1 wrote:i can and will spell it out for you, but first let me make sure i am not just wasting my time:
were you seriously asking this question? if so, did you spend two minutes
[...]
Please spell it out for me, as I am not a mod author I am obviously too stupid to understand without your explanation.

Thank you for your time.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by arod-1 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:55 pm

Roberdin wrote:Please spell it out for me, as I am not a mod author I am obviously too stupid to understand without your explanation.

Thank you for your time.
was not trying to hint that anyone is "stupid". if my previous post came out as aggressive or confrontational i do apologize.
as to the actual question:
what would such a change entail?
well, first thing, to the best of my knowledge, the modx syntax does not even contain a "rename directory" verb (required for the upgrade script), so you have your first obstacle right there.
(also - just think of all those support questions of users asking how to perform the rename using all kinds of ftp clients - command line, gui etc. for the users who choose to do the upgrade manually)
second, the vast majority of MODs contain at least one language string. mods in database are required to support the default - i.e. english language. hence, each and every *existing* mod (except the small minority of mods with no language strings) will have to post a new version, even if nothing in the new phpbb version requires any real change to the mod. this is a very significant load on mod authors as well as validation team, and for a while at least 2 versions of the mod will have to be maintained (one for "language/en" and one for "language/en_gb") if the mod author wish to continue support for older versions of phpbb (say, when a bug in the mod is found and fixed).
this might (and might not - someone will have to try!) screw the ability to remove mods that were installed with automod.
and lastly, since the language directory is mapped one-to-one to a field in the users table in the db (user_lang or somesuch) it will require actual update to the DB which, among other things, would make all backups taken before the switch unusable (at least for boards that support english).

there might be some more implications - these are what i came up with after two minutes of thought about the subject.
nothing insurmountable, but i wouldn't call it "just adding a language key".

and remind me - what would be the value-added?

peace.
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by Techie-Micheal » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:15 pm

arod-1 wrote:
Techie-Micheal wrote:What costs would there be? This isn't a pivotal section of code that MODs or the core relies on. The cost should be no more than adding a language key that MOD authors need to add.
i can and will spell it out for you, but first let me make sure i am not just wasting my time:
were you seriously asking this question? if so, did you spend two minutes trying to think through all the implications?
if the answers are "yes" for both these questions (i find it somewhat unlikely), i will explain.

peace.
Yes, I really asked the question, and yes I took two minutes to think it through. In fact, I took more than two minutes to think it through. Again, how are the associated costs any different than when the development team adds a new language string, changes an API (as they recently did with the CAPTCHA), or any other change that widely affects the MOD community?
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Re: What's the difference between /en and /en_us?

Post by arod-1 » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:14 pm

Techie-Micheal wrote:Yes, I really asked the question, and yes I took two minutes to think it through. In fact, I took more than two minutes to think it through. Again, how are the associated costs any different than when the development team adds a new language string, changes an API (as they recently did with the CAPTCHA), or any other change that widely affects the MOD community?
adding a new language string *does not* "widely affects the mod community". in fact, it doesn't affect it at all.
as to API changes: true, and this is why such changes should be very carefully (and reluctantly) considered, with the cost/benefit thought out thoroughly. in this case you'll get a divide-by-zero exception.
in addition, when such change (==api) is eventually executed, it only affects small number of mods which actually make use of a specific api that was changed.
with large probability, the added value that was the motivation behind the api change would lead to some desirable changes in any piece of code that use this api. so these mod changes, in general will be "good" changes.
renaming the english directory would affect practically *all* mods, without a single "good" change.
so i would say it's very different.

all the other things i listed above (inability of existing upgrade tools to even handle directory rename, artificial changes to database, breaking automod uninstall) still apply.

please remind me again, what would be the benefit?

peace.
standard disclaimer:
backup your db and files before you do anything.
absolutely no guarantee.
if you do what i advise and it blows in your face, all you'll hear from me is: "ah... sorry, i guess"

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