Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

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Kellanved
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Kellanved »

phpBB3 has a authentication plug-in interface, i.e. it's quite easy to realize a combined sign-in with almost any application.
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Lumpy Burgertushie
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

everything you mentioned the "you" wished phpbb had is just that, what "you" wish it had. this discussions comes up all the time.

the bottom line is that phpbb is a bulletin board script. it is not a cms, it is not a social networking script.

it can be turned into whatever you like, but you have to do the changing.

as for the urls, boy, this just gets beat to death.

you can go to google, type in just about anything you want and put +forum after it.

you will come up with a ton of phpbb boards that do not have any special urls.

the search engines have absolutely no problem indexing dynamic urls.

as far as page ranking, that has nothing to do with the url, it has to do with content versus keywords entered into the search box. and it has to do with incoming and outgoing content relevant links.

that is it.

sitemaps are pretty much useless on a dynamically generated site. the content/page names are constantly changing.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

vellatechie wrote:btw wanted to ask if there any possibility for phpbb to officially develop anything like IP converge?? i mean single sign on for various cms with phpBB.. There are various Joomla-phpBB bridges but ive yet to see a proper wp-phpBB bridge an ditl be great if phpbb can officially support something like that
wp-united does this very well.


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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Tom »

vellatechie wrote:I guess i will soon be moving my forum to IPb or vbulletin i guess :(
Just to add, no matter what forum system you use there will always be something "missing" that you would like to see. If you truly feel that switching from phpBB will solve your problems, then by all means go ahead, but there is no one forum solution out there than can satisfy everyone's needs. That is why we have the MOD system for phpBB, which will be improved in future versions.
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vellatechie
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by vellatechie »

Tom wrote:If you truly feel that switching from phpBB will solve your problems, then by all means go ahead, but there is no one forum solution out there than can satisfy everyone's needs.
Agreed.. I tried to stick with phpbb3 coz some mods were in development like SEO which was supposed to be updated, IPB profile page mod but it got binned and now since most of the members wants me to switch to a more feature rich forum i guess i have to since money wasnt really an issue
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:wp-united does this very well.
My forum is in subdomain and website is in main domain.. For Wp-United we need both things on the main domain.. And since WP-United isnt officially supported i wont really waste my time on this as its supported by just one guy and might go dead for montsh like it happend before so thats why i asked if phpBB team wansts to develop something themselves
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:the bottom line is that phpbb is a bulletin board script. it is not a cms, it is not a social networking script.

it can be turned into whatever you like, but you have to do the changing.
Most of the other bulletin boards have become much more and like i said before that was my own case.. I liked modding sometime back but editing theme everytime new version is out, redoing all the steps to install the mods and checking compatibility checking conflicting code is wayy too much work for me these days. Thats why i and most of other guys which phpBB was as simple as wordpress to update and mod
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:as for the urls, boy, this just gets beat to death.

you can go to google, type in just about anything you want and put +forum after it.

you will come up with a ton of phpbb boards that do not have any special urls.

the search engines have absolutely no problem indexing dynamic urls.

as far as page ranking, that has nothing to do with the url, it has to do with content versus keywords entered into the search box. and it has to do with incoming and outgoing content relevant links.
I know PR doesnt depend on it.. I have a forum which is ranked no1 in google for many keywords and is PR3 and have over 15000 pages in google search engine.. Only seo ive done in that is used dynamic meta tags..

BUT i did an experiment with a domain few months back.. I started clean phpbb forum and wordpress blog as Techblog.domain.com and techforum.domain.com.. Wordpress had just sitemap and static links.. phpbb was clean.. i posted the same 35 (7x5) articles first on the forum and then on the blog.. Only thing i did was submitted those on google to crawl.. after two weeks wordpress blog had 30 more pages in google search engine than the forum

i am not talking out randomly when i say static links doesnt matter.. It certainly helps a LOTT..

Try search "game forum"in google and youll realise all top 5-6 forums have static urls.. i ahvent checked remaing so not sure about that..
All i wanted to say is just stop giving phpBB website example.. Noone said its difficult getting pages indexed with dynaic url.. all were trying to say is its much much easier to get indexed and get ranked when urls are static for a new website
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Phil »

Correlation != causation. Simply put, there's no definitive evidence that search engines require, or even prefer, so-called "SEO friendly" URLs -- this is a discussion that has been had ad nauseum, if you wish to read more insight regarding it a simply search here will find it.
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by AdamR »

vellatechie wrote:Try search "game forum"in google and youll realise all top 5-6 forums have static urls.. i ahvent checked remaing so not sure about that..
All i wanted to say is just stop giving phpBB website example.. Noone said its difficult getting pages indexed with dynaic url.. all were trying to say is its much much easier to get indexed and get ranked when urls are static for a new website
There's nothing dynamic about phpBB's URLs, though they're not considered "friendly." Also, correlation does not imply causation. Just because the top sites online have friendly URLs doesn't mean they got to be the top sites because of them.

Also note that Google/Yahoo/Bing also keep track of a lot more information on forums than they do blogs. For example, they track when the last reply was made to a topic. If a topic is more recent, it is likely to rank higher. There's a good reason for this: Bulletin boards contain discussion. Blogs contain information which generally doesn't change on a daily or hourly basis (or to the minute on phpBB.com). Since discussion is usually only applicable to the present (who cares about a topic posted back in 2007 that no one's replied to), older topics are automatically not ranked as high. If a topic hasn't been replied to recently, search engines (most often correctly) assume that if no one wanted to reply, then it's probably not that important. It has very little to do with the URLs.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

I am glad you brought that up Adam.

I keep hearing people comparing a bulletin board to a CMS or blog. They are simply not the same thing.

yes, you can use a blog or cms as a place to post and have others comment, but that type of "discussion" is not the same as a bulletin board like phpbb where everyone can get involved in discussing multiple topics very easily and quickly.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by AdamR »

To note: I have stated that I have absolutely no problem with adding friendly URLs, site maps, and meta tags per topic and would love to see it in a future version of phpBB. That's my opinion. But It simply won't be added for the reason of getting better search rankings because that's rarely the case, but instead because it benefits users in other ways.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by EXreaction »

Better integration should come in the future, especially with phpBB4. Integrating two systems just plain is not easy, too many applications rely on global variables and much of the time they have conflicts with other software that use the same global variables. I've tried integrating enough things in my time to know that it sucks.

phpBB4 should fix that problem with less (hopefully no) reliance and use of global variables and functions that could conflict. It really can not be done for 3.x because that would require rewriting a large portion of code, which would break all mods.
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Desdenova »

vellatechie wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:wp-united does this very well.
My forum is in subdomain and website is in main domain.. For Wp-United we need both things on the main domain.. And since WP-United isnt officially supported i wont really waste my time on this as its supported by just one guy and might go dead for montsh like it happend before so thats why i asked if phpBB team wansts to develop something themselves
The phpBB team makes a bulletin-board system. They don't make a CMS, or a blog. They don't built integration systems for other projects either. There is a reason: phpBB is of utmost importance to the project, and they do not have the resources to spare to work on constantly updating some integration system.

Yes, the author may not update the system for months at a time, but that is because it is just him working on it, and nobody else. This kind of thing happens more often than you realize with small open source projects.
vellatechie wrote:Most of the other bulletin boards have become much more and like i said before that was my own case.. I liked modding sometime back but editing theme everytime new version is out, redoing all the steps to install the mods and checking compatibility checking conflicting code is wayy too much work for me these days. Thats why i and most of other guys which phpBB was as simple as wordpress to update and mod
I'd rather have a pain to update in my system than have something that has had updates due to security issues for many (if not all) of the point releases on the 2.8 line.
vellatechie wrote:i am not talking out randomly when i say static links doesnt matter.. It certainly helps a LOTT..
Static links are the placebo of SEO, as has been pointed out in posts previous.
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by AdamR »

Desdenova wrote:The phpBB team makes a bulletin-board system. They don't make a CMS, or a blog. They don't built integration systems for other projects either. There is a reason: phpBB is of utmost importance to the project, and they do not have the resources to spare to work on constantly updating some integration system.
On that note, one of our foremost goals in future versions of phpBB is to significantly change the way third-party applications are able to interact with phpBB in order to facilitate bridges/integration systems being able to be made much more easily. If we put a solid and extensible platform in place, developers and MOD authors will naturally follow. There are plenty of shortcomings in this area (as EXreaction pointed out) which discourage developers from creating these, and that will be addressed.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by Ishimaru Chiaki »

AdamR wrote:To note however, I assume when you say "SEO" you are referring to friendly URLs. While these URLs do, indeed, make it easier for humans to distinguish the page they are on or are going to browse to (and I personally would like to see this in a future release of phpBB), from a modern search engine's perspective, the actual content of the page takes a much higher priority in search results, regardless of the URL.

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About this point about search engine, I noticed that some crawlers, such as the Web Archive crawler, or utilities such as IE Net Renderer (a Firefox extension that permits you to get a quick overview of a Web page under a IE version, using a third-party site) can't go across the first "&" in a non-seo URL.

How did I notice it.

- Recently, I had to look for something in the archives of a board I where I used to be a member. I browsed into a particular section, but only the first page. If I tried to browse the section's second page, it tells me the archive doesn't exist for this page. The fact is that for the second page of a section, there are two variables (the section id, then the page number) instead of one that are transmitted via URL and so, these two variables are separated by a & character.

- When I try to use IE Net Renderer to get overviews of my viewtopic pages (since I dev under Ubuntu), the screenshots I get are "This topic doesn't exist" error pages. Once again, this is caused by the fact that two variables are transmitted : the forum id and the topic id, and these variables are separated by a &, since my testboard isn't SEO'd
The link : http://ishimaru-design.servhome.org/tests/phpBB3

So, from my observations, yes the SEO have an influence in page indexing : More there are variables to transmit by URL, more the pages will be hard to index.
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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by AdamR »

Ishimaru Chiaki wrote:About this point about search engine, I noticed that some crawlers, such as the Web Archive crawler, or utilities such as IE Net Renderer (a Firefox extension that permits you to get a quick overview of a Web page under a IE version, using a third-party site) can't go across the first "&" in a non-seo URL.
Web Archive handles URLs with & in them just fine. ;)

The fact that sub-pages aren't in the archive doesn't mean that there's an issue with the URL. It simply means that the crawler didn't crawl them. You can do this with any site using the Web Archive. You'll easily and quickly hit pages (even those with friendly URLs) that just simply weren't crawled and/or archived. ;)
When I try to use IE Net Renderer to get overviews of my viewtopic pages (since I dev under Ubuntu), the screenshots I get are "This topic doesn't exist" error pages. Once again, this is caused by the fact that two variables are transmitted : the forum id and the topic id, and these variables are separated by a &, since my testboard isn't SEO'd
The link : http://ishimaru-design.servhome.org/tests/phpBB3
If you're using the Firefox addon, it's likely an issue local to the addon itself that's not passing the full URL, or an improperly encoded URL. I just threw about 15 different URLs into the IE NetRenderer without issue, inclusive of URLs with "variables" and session IDs.

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Re: Discussion: phpBB is falling behind?

Post by vellatechie »

Ill drop the seo discussion as almost everyone will have diff opinion as to what works and what doesnt then then i guess each search engine is very different from the other as well.. But hopefully sooner in 3.x series and hopefully in 4.x few years down the lines static url, site map will be added by default.. And no i dont wanna search about static url over here.. If i wanted to id rather read at seo moz :)
http://www.seomoz.org/blog/dynamic-urls ... till-clear
EXreaction wrote:Better integration should come in the future, especially with phpBB4. Integrating two systems just plain is not easy, too many applications rely on global variables and much of the time they have conflicts with other software that use the same global variables. I've tried integrating enough things in my time to know that it sucks.

phpBB4 should fix that problem with less (hopefully no) reliance and use of global variables and functions that could conflict. It really can not be done for 3.x because that would require rewriting a large portion of code, which would break all mods.
AdamR wrote:To note: I have stated that I have absolutely no problem with adding friendly URLs, site maps, and meta tags per topic and would love to see it in a future version of phpBB. That's my opinion. But It simply won't be added for the reason of getting better search rankings because that's rarely the case, but instead because it benefits users in other ways.

- Adam
Thanks :)


PS: i do not want to look like anti phpBB or anything.. i love this forum and i love my bertie :D and i really respect all the effort you guys have put in for this.. I was just plain pissed coz id have to move one of my forum to some other platform.. Although i still will continue to use and support phpBB in my another forum.. hail phpbb :mrgreen:
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