Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

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Pony99CA
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Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Pony99CA »

I know recruiting is against the rules, and I have no intention of doing any, but I am curious about why it's against the rules. I didn't see any explanation after a search through the forums, but it seems like it's a reasonable way to get other members helping more.

Personally, I think having a Recruiting forum (with sub-forums for administration, MODs, styles, languages, etc.) would be a good idea. The rule would be that (with the exception of administration maybe) you could only link to posts in the main forums. (In other words, your requirements would have to be in the regular forums and your post in the Recruiting forum would just tell how much you're willing to pay -- if anything -- and a link to the related post.)

So why is that a bad thing? I've seen lots of topics locked for violating this rule, but because they aren't deleted, it's not hard for people to PM the violator, so what's the point?

Just curious,
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Cpt. Blackbeard »

I'm guessing Liability, by not openly allowing it they can not be held Liable if you recruit someone who takes over your Forum and turns it into an X rated site, but by leaving the post in place it allows others to PM the Author if they wish and they can deal in Private without involving the support team.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by EXreaction »

Two big reasons.

1. If we allow it, many people may post regularly asking for new support staff (basically will be like spam for their board).
2. You are not likely to find the best staff here. You may find people good at managing phpBB installations, those are not typically people that come on as staff on boards (they can get paid for it), but the normal people in the staff (moderators) are not as likely to be found here because that's not the audience that visits this site as commonly.

If you need added staff members you should watch for people who already regularly visit your board and are able to handle the position you would give them. It looks better than bringing some random person in and you know they are already dedicated to the board.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by stevemaury »

Cpt. Blackbeard wrote:I'm guessing Liability, by not openly allowing it they can not be held Liable if you recruit someone who takes over your Forum and turns it into an X rated site, but by leaving the post in place it allows others to PM the Author if they wish and they can deal in Private without involving the support team.

Guess again.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Cpt. Blackbeard »

Admit it, it was a good guess anyway. :D
I agree with the reasons given though, all my staff are folks I already knew from another Forum who joined mine, I can't see trusting it to someone I didn't know pretty well already.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by stevemaury »

Cpt. Blackbeard wrote:Admit it, it was a good guess anyway. :D
Actually, not. By that logic a newspaper would be liable if an employee hired through a want ad turned out to be an embezzler. People go to school for a long time to learn liability law - it doesn't come in the drinking water.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Cpt. Blackbeard »

stevemaury wrote:
Cpt. Blackbeard wrote:Admit it, it was a good guess anyway. :D
Actually, not. By that logic a newspaper would be liable if an employee hired through a want ad turned out to be an embezzler. People go to school for a long time to learn liability law - it doesn't come in the drinking water.
By that reason number two is a poor reasons to use as well. What do you care if people recruit staff who don't meet your standards, isn't that their decision to make? I think my guess is as good as reason number two, especially since the hypothetical newspaper no doubt has that covered already while the average Forum would not.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by AdamR »

We try to reserve signatures for those who wish to offer their services to board owners. The current structure would not support this type of recruitment area properly. I will not say it's entirely out of the question at some point in the future in some manifestation or another. This idea has been discussed among the Team Members in the past, and it was more or less agreed that it wouldn't work optimally.

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Techie-Micheal »

There have been complaints in the past that "so-and-so hacked my site! I gave them the password to my FTP and they deleted everything!" Which isn't hacking, or a compromise of any sort, but ignoring the logic issues, it does tend to reflect badly on the community.
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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Pony99CA »

Cpt. Blackbeard wrote:I'm guessing Liability, by not openly allowing it they can not be held Liable if you recruit someone who takes over your Forum and turns it into an X rated site, but by leaving the post in place it allows others to PM the Author if they wish and they can deal in Private without involving the support team.
I doubt it's about liability. phpBB.com already states they have zero control over any boards running this software other than phpbb.com itself and area51.phpbb.com.

As for leaving the post in place, that's my point. You're still allowing recruiting by posting and then using PMs to seal the deal. Either recruiting posts should be deleted (or the recruiting part edited out) or they should be allowed (at least in the Recruiting forum) with limits -- no recruiting for non-phpBB items, like models for your porno site :P.

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Pony99CA »

AdamR wrote:We try to reserve signatures for those who wish to offer their services to board owners.
Except you can't search for signatures. You have to stumble upon them while browsing forums. The newer a board owner is, the less likely that is to happen.
AdamR wrote:The current structure would not support this type of recruitment area properly.
Understood, which is why I suggested a separate Recruiting forum with sub-forums for areas where recruiting would be permitted.
AdamR wrote:I will not say it's entirely out of the question at some point in the future in some manifestation or another. This idea has been discussed among the Team Members in the past, and it was more or less agreed that it wouldn't work optimally.
I'm glad it's being considered, but remember very little truly works "optimally". That's why spammers are still alive. :D I would try it out in a way you think will work "well enough" and then fine tune things as necessary.

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by AdamR »

Pony99CA wrote:
AdamR wrote:The current structure would not support this type of recruitment area properly.
Understood, which is why I suggested a separate Recruiting forum with sub-forums for areas where recruiting would be permitted.
I was more referring to the overall project structure rather than the forum structure. :)

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Pony99CA »

EXreaction wrote:1. If we allow it, many people may post regularly asking for new support staff (basically will be like spam for their board).
Put a limit on how often somebody may post in each sub-forum (like the bump limit). If they abuse it, they're warned. Three stirkes, they're banned.
EXreaction wrote:2. You are not likely to find the best staff here. You may find people good at managing phpBB installations, those are not typically people that come on as staff on boards (they can get paid for it), but the normal people in the staff (moderators) are not as likely to be found here because that's not the audience that visits this site as commonly.
That's why I specifically did not suggest having a Moderator sub-forum. I agree that those should be members of the community, not hired guns.

However, Admins who can install, MOD and tune your forum are different, as are people who can create MODs, styles or languages (usually a one-time job, with possible maintenance as new phpBB releases come out).

Maybe after creating those MODs, styles or languages, they'll also post them here for others to use. What started as a paid assignment for one forum might end up benefiting the whole community. In fact, I'd consider making that a requirement. Works generated through the phpBB.com Recruiting section would be required to be validated like normal works and contributed here. (I don't know that you could actually enforce that, but it should be an honor system, at least.)

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by Pony99CA »

AdamR wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:
AdamR wrote:The current structure would not support this type of recruitment area properly.
Understood, which is why I suggested a separate Recruiting forum with sub-forums for areas where recruiting would be permitted.
I was more referring to the overall project structure rather than the forum structure. :)
Ah, OK. What project structure changes do you think would be necessary? I see that you might need some number of new moderators to handle the Recruiting area, but I'm not sure any real organizational changes would be necessary.

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Re: Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules?

Post by AdamR »

Pony99CA wrote:Ah, OK. What project structure changes do you think would be necessary? I see that you might need some number of new moderators to handle the Recruiting area, but I'm not sure any real organizational changes would be necessary.
phpBB.com and the phpBB Group develops, maintains, and supports the software. This support is offered entirely for free and by volunteers. Even outside of phpBB.com, there is very little commercialisation of phpBB services. There are two key reasons to this, in my opinion:
  • Community contribution to both the codebase as well as the direction of the project is currently lower than it needs to be
  • phpBB has a very strong history of being anti-commercialisation.
Years ago when we first decided to place advertisements on phpBB.com for a form of income to supplement our costs, there was quite a large (and long) discussion about it behind closed doors. The objection back then (circa 2003) has more or less passed, but the issue of community involvement remains. To be perfectly honest, in order to ensure that quality commercial contracting is provided in this new forum, along with moderation, a detailed plan needs to be put in place in order to not only protect users, but phpBB's reputation at the same time.

In order to do this, there needs to be more people interested in getting their hands dirty with phpBB, both in usability and the code itself. phpBB needs to be a product that people want to use in their contracts. It needs to be extensible, scalable, and easily customised. To a very large extent (thanks to the MOD community), it already is. :) But there is a lot left to be done. This can be accomplished by opening up the direction of the project as well as the development in greater amounts to the community. Let me append this statement by saying, "coming soon..." ;)

I'll be perfectly blunt. I wouldn't trust just any old person on phpBB.com to be contracted out. For their own safety, users shouldn't either. That means that there needs to be a moderately professional atmosphere surrounding such an endeavour which, at this point, is rare with regards to phpBB because of its anti-commercialisation history.

I personally feel (and this may not reflect the opinions of the rest of the team) that having something like this is viable in the future. But not now. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

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