Copyright removal

Do not post support requests, bug reports or feature requests. Discuss phpBB here. Non-phpBB related discussion goes in General Discussion!
Suggested Hosts
User avatar
Ger
Recognised Extension Developer
Posts: 1881
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: 192.168.1.100
Contact:

Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:32 am

Yesterday, while working on an IPB board, I got an idea about copyright removal. With phpBB there's a simple rule: no copyright == no support. Still there are many users who remove the copyright and try to get support, resulting in closed topics and frustrated users (and supporters).

IPB offers copyright removal as a "product": you can purchase it for 30 pound and the copyright disappears. Seems like a market to me. :)
When you let users buy copyright removal and instead show a special key with comments in de source, those users still can get support and the phpBB-project gets some extra revenue. This way the basic product still remain free and you offer copyright removal with support.
My extensions:
Simple CMS, Feed post bot, Avatar Resize, Modbreak, Magic OGP, Live topic update, Modern Quote, Quoted Where (GDPR) and Autoresponder.
Newest: FAQ manager for 3.2

Like my work? Buy me a coffee to keep it coming. :ugeek:
-Available for custom work-

User avatar
Marshalrusty
Project Manager
Project Manager
Posts: 29252
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: New York City
Name: Yuriy Rusko
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Marshalrusty » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:02 pm

This has naturally been brought up before.

We are an open source project and we have no intention of ever charging money for any version of phpBB. Why would you want us to?

I likewise don't understand why someone would purchase the product to remove the credit line; it doesn't take up much space and everyone familiar with bulletin board software knows the truth anyway, so it just looks silly to them.

I could potentially see us setting up some kind of paid support program for large professional users at some point in the future (although there are currently no plans whatsoever to proceed with this), but that too would have nothing to do with the credit line.
Have comments/praise/complaints/suggestions? Please feel free to PM me.

Need private help? Hire me for all your phpBB and web development needs

User avatar
Ger
Recognised Extension Developer
Posts: 1881
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: 192.168.1.100
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:29 pm

Marshalrusty wrote:I likewise don't understand why someone would purchase the product to remove the credit line; it doesn't take up much space and everyone familiar with bulletin board software knows the truth anyway, so it just looks silly to them.
Well, I don't either, but on the Dutch phpBB support forums I frequently encounter users who have removed the credit line. Silly, but true.

That's why I thought of this: whatever their reason is, they must have done it on purpose and must have read the comment about not removing it. So when they probably think that removing the copyright notice is more important than respecting it's creators, maybe they are willing to pay for it instead.

But it conflicts with the filosofy of being a free BB, so I understand why you don't want to go there. :)
My extensions:
Simple CMS, Feed post bot, Avatar Resize, Modbreak, Magic OGP, Live topic update, Modern Quote, Quoted Where (GDPR) and Autoresponder.
Newest: FAQ manager for 3.2

Like my work? Buy me a coffee to keep it coming. :ugeek:
-Available for custom work-

Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Pony99CA » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:13 am

Marshalrusty wrote:I could potentially see us setting up some kind of paid support program for large professional users at some point in the future (although there are currently no plans whatsoever to proceed with this), but that too would have nothing to do with the credit line.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. Paid support should also include explicit permission to remove the copyright if people felt the need. (If I'm paying, I'm obviously supporting you that way.)

Businesses probably want it to appear that they built their own solution. Yes, people familiar with boards would probably know it was phpBB, but how many customers of Joe's Mufflers are likely to be that familiar with board software?

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.

User avatar
Lumpy Burgertushie
Registered User
Posts: 66738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 3:11 am
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:09 am

why would paying for something automatically give you the right to remove the copyright?

you pay for windows but that does not give you the right to remove thier copyright notices etc.


robert
I'm baaaaaccckkkk. still doing work on donation basis. PM your needs.

Premium phpBB 3.2 Styles by PlanetStyles.net

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound?

User avatar
Ger
Recognised Extension Developer
Posts: 1881
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: 192.168.1.100
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:33 am

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:why would paying for something automatically give you the right to remove the copyright?
It doesn't, since you already have the right to remove it. ;)
My extensions:
Simple CMS, Feed post bot, Avatar Resize, Modbreak, Magic OGP, Live topic update, Modern Quote, Quoted Where (GDPR) and Autoresponder.
Newest: FAQ manager for 3.2

Like my work? Buy me a coffee to keep it coming. :ugeek:
-Available for custom work-

Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Pony99CA » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:43 pm

Ger wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:why would paying for something automatically give you the right to remove the copyright?
It doesn't, since you already have the right to remove it. ;)
Precisely. My point was that paying for support (which supports phpBB) should override the prohibition against removing the credit line if you want support.

If they ever charge for support, I would change the rule to say that the credit line must remain intact if you want free support.

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.

Son of a Beach
Registered User
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Son of a Beach » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:54 am

Firstly, let me state that I retain the copyright notice on my phpBB board, have no intention of removing it and am happy to keep it there to support phpBB. However...
Marshalrusty wrote:I likewise don't understand why someone would purchase the product to remove the credit line; it doesn't take up much space and everyone familiar with bulletin board software knows the truth anyway, so it just looks silly to them.
This is a little presumptuous. Surely the fact that so many people do want to remove the copyright makes it clear that it does NOT look silly to remove it, at least to those people.

Personally, I think that it does look considerably better without the copyright notice, from a purely aesthetic point of view. It also keeps the focus on the content, rather than on who made the software which is being used to manage/present the content. I suspect that 99% of end-users don't care who made the software.

I find the "free software" movement to be a teensy bit hypocritical in this respect. If something is truly free (as in speech) then there are no restrictions on it. Using the "free software" argument to support the idea that such a restriction should be in place is just a little bit ironic, I reckon. :-)

Having said all that, I understand why things are that way, and am happy to play along.

From some points of view, the GPL is terribly restrictive, and does not promote freedom very well at all. The BSD license on the other had, is a lot more free. But now I'm way off topic. Sorry. :-)

User avatar
Marshalrusty
Project Manager
Project Manager
Posts: 29252
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: New York City
Name: Yuriy Rusko
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Marshalrusty » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:55 am

Son of a Beach wrote:
Marshalrusty wrote:I likewise don't understand why someone would purchase the product to remove the credit line; it doesn't take up much space and everyone familiar with bulletin board software knows the truth anyway, so it just looks silly to them.
This is a little presumptuous. Surely the fact that so many people do want to remove the copyright makes it clear that it does NOT look silly to remove it, at least to those people.
Firstly, you are taking my use of "silly" out of context and then attributing something to me that I did not actually say. What I said was, and you quoted it, so it's right there, is that it looks silly to people who are familiar with the software, know that it's open source, know that it ships with a credit notice, and know that we request it not be removed. So while most people don't really care about who made the software (and you said this yourself) and therefore don't care about a tiny line of text in the footer, to these people in "the know", the lack of the credit line will actually reflect poorly on the company/organization that chose to remove it.
Son of a Beach wrote:Personally, I think that it does look considerably better without the copyright notice, from a purely aesthetic point of view. It also keeps the focus on the content, rather than on who made the software which is being used to manage/present the content. I suspect that 99% of end-users don't care who made the software.
It's a tiny line in the footer. We even don't mind if people replace it with an image, if it better fits their style.

The line serves a purpose: it links back to us. Let's say that the immeasurably tiny aesthetic "hit" people take is a tribute to us, and they leave it because we appreciate it.
Son of a Beach wrote:I find the "free software" movement to be a teensy bit hypocritical in this respect. If something is truly free (as in speech) then there are no restrictions on it. Using the "free software" argument to support the idea that such a restriction should be in place is just a little bit ironic, I reckon. :-)

Having said all that, I understand why things are that way, and am happy to play along.

From some points of view, the GPL is terribly restrictive, and does not promote freedom very well at all. The BSD license on the other had, is a lot more free. But now I'm way off topic. Sorry. :-)
The license does not prohibit the removal of the visible copyright. The software is released with no warranty and no guaranteed or implied support. Users do nothing illegal by removing the copyright; we simply request that they do not.

There are always varying degrees and approaches to freedom. In some senses, the GPL is more free because it guarantees that any derivative works are also released under the GPL. You can argue that this, in itself, is a restrictions of freedom, but the lack of any terms is anarchy, and anarchy invariably leads to abuse of the system and, subsequently, severe restrictions of freedom. All the things that the GPL prevents people from doing are things that would not be good for this community. As such, I see it as beneficial, rather than "terribly restrictive".
Have comments/praise/complaints/suggestions? Please feel free to PM me.

Need private help? Hire me for all your phpBB and web development needs

Son of a Beach
Registered User
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Son of a Beach » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:23 am

You appear to have missed my point MR. :)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

User avatar
Marshalrusty
Project Manager
Project Manager
Posts: 29252
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: New York City
Name: Yuriy Rusko
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Marshalrusty » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:08 am

Son of a Beach wrote:You appear to have missed my point MR. :)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Do you mind if I ask which of the points I missed? I feel like there were several there. Did I miss all of them?
Have comments/praise/complaints/suggestions? Please feel free to PM me.

Need private help? Hire me for all your phpBB and web development needs

Son of a Beach
Registered User
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Son of a Beach » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:51 pm

Well, I don't want to flog a dead horse, so to speak, but since you asked... :-)

I was simply trying to point out that the look-and-feel of a site should be oriented at the end-users, and that to the end users the less clutter, the better, and that being without a copyright notice is more aesthetically pleasing and therefore better for the end users.

Yes, it is small, but it still makes a difference.

NB: As I originally stated, I still support the copyright notice being there, I'm just pointing out that there are legitimate reasons for some people to prefer to not have it there.

As for may rant on "freedom", that was way off topic, anyhow. :-)

User avatar
onehundredandtwo
Registered User
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:07 am

Re: Copyright removal

Post by onehundredandtwo » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:37 am

Aesthetics? I've never really noticed it - in fact the copyright has rather low contrast to the background. I hardly see how that it an argument at all. :?
Need help preventing spam? Read Preventing spam in phpBB 3.0.6 and above

Son of a Beach
Registered User
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Son of a Beach » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:54 am

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But the fact that so many people keep bringing up the issue is surely evidence that some people do notice it, and prefer the look of forum sites without it.

User avatar
Lumpy Burgertushie
Registered User
Posts: 66738
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 3:11 am
Contact:

Re: Copyright removal

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:07 am

most of the people that bring it up just want to make others think the whole site is done by them.

I really don't think it is a matter of aesthetics to many of them.


robert
I'm baaaaaccckkkk. still doing work on donation basis. PM your needs.

Premium phpBB 3.2 Styles by PlanetStyles.net

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound?

Post Reply

Return to “phpBB Discussion”