Copyright removal

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Ger
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:02 am

Well, I do know some people who have removed it because of aesthetics. One for example has an CMS combined with a phpBB board, a non-standard based style and some mods with extra copyright. All together resulting in about 6 or 7 copyright notices. No-one likes that, so he replaced all the notices with a link pointing at a thank you page where all the credits are given to the proper sites.
But removing the original credit lines was enough reason for the phpBB.nl-team to close his supporttopics...
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by allaboutnetwork » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:25 am

Ger wrote:Well, I do know some people who have removed it because of aesthetics. One for example has an CMS combined with a phpBB board, a non-standard based style and some mods with extra copyright. All together resulting in about 6 or 7 copyright notices. No-one likes that, so he replaced all the notices with a link pointing at a thank you page where all the credits are given to the proper sites.
But removing the original credit lines was enough reason for the phpBB.nl-team to close his supporttopics...
Ive used to run a couple phpbb forums before and to me the copyright never seemed like a problem (Except for the surprise copyright from the Ad management mod) to me. And just to clarify here: Is phpbb.nl even an actual division from phpbb? And to solve the problem with the multiple copyrights, he could have simple left the original copyright as is, and added a link to all of the other copyrights.

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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Erik Frèrejean » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:34 am

allaboutnetwork wrote:And just to clarify here: Is phpbb.nl even an actual division from phpbb?
No phpbb.nl is an international support site which is in no way controlled by the phpBB group. They are however free to set their own rules ;)
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Ger
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:59 am

allaboutnetwork wrote:And just to clarify here: Is phpbb.nl even an actual division from phpbb?
Well, it's the Dutch support site and they globally follow the regulations from phpBB.com.
allaboutnetwork wrote:And to solve the problem with the multiple copyrights, he could have simple left the original copyright as is, and added a link to all of the other copyrights.
That doesn't seem logical to me. All the copyrights together, but phpBB gets a special place.
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by RMcGirr83 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:04 am

Ger wrote:That doesn't seem logical to me. All the copyrights together, but phpBB gets a special place.
No, phpBB gets the place it always had and all the others get a "special place".
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Ger » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:08 am

Semantics. The point is: you have the choice to place all the copyrights on one specially created credit/thankyou page or you leave them on their original place, creating an ugly "copyright cloud" in the footer. Personally I prefer a special credit page.

But hey, that's not the topic here. The question was about the possibillity of copyright removal with paid support. The team apperently doesn't like the idea, so that's the end of it I guess.
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by stokerpiller » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:15 pm

Ger wrote:Semantics. The point is: you have the choice to place all the copyrights on one specially created credit/thankyou page or you leave them on their original place, creating an ugly "copyright cloud" in the footer. Personally I prefer a special credit page.
I agree.

But since phpBB is licensed GPL and the fact that the copyright notice actually isnt a copyright notice, I think it would be much better to skip the copyright discussions and let people remove the copyright if they want - and still get support.
It will make life easier for everybody.
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by RMcGirr83 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:31 pm

stokerpiller wrote:and the fact that the copyright notice actually isnt a copyright notice,
Why do you say that?
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by stokerpiller » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:06 pm

RMcGirr83 wrote:Why do you say that?
According to earlier discussions, I cant remember them word for word.

But the notice you see in the footer isnt a copyright notice.
and
GPL doesnt cover the output = what your browser is displaying.
Only the hidden comments in the code.

As I remember it.
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:51 pm

GPL and copyright and phpbb rules are completely different things.

in the US if you, as the owner of the work,put a copyright notice on your page ( forget the code, visually on the page ) that is all that is required for a valid copyright.
however, as the user of said copyright work, you can remove the notice if you wish to.
( that does not mean you can replace it with your own to take credit for other's work. )

for GPL, if the copyright notice is included in the code, you must leave it there.


for phpbb, it is requested that you leave it on the page visually. not required, requested.
for phpbb, if you do not, then you do not get support here on this board.
that is a phpbb rule, it has nothing to do with GPL requirements or with legal copyright requirements.

hope that clears some of this up.

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Re: Copyright removal

Post by noth » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:12 am

Ger wrote:But removing the original credit lines was enough reason for the phpBB.nl-team to close his supporttopics...
glad to hear it

the original credit lines should stay exactly where they are

if you can't cope with that, write your own solution so that you're not using someone else's code !!!!! :x
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Phil » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:43 am

That's not entirely true -- users are free to remove the Powered by phpBB line from their installations -- if they do, however, they sacrifice support on phpBB.com. That being said, they are not allowed to remove the copyright within the source that is not displayed to the end user (those within the leading comments).
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Re: Copyright removal

Post by arod-1 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:26 pm

this is an old subject, but it was raised again on some other board, so i thought i'll add my thoughts here.
since Marshalrusty's response at the beginning of this thread seems to summarize the team's attitude, i write my post as a dialog with his answer.

twisi, phpbb asks for a very modest "payment" for the support board-owners receive here:
this "payment" is the "powered by" link at the bottom of every page.
the suggestion here is to allow board-owners to choose between two forms of payment *for the support*:
-- the traditional, free, and in the spirit of GPL - place the "powered by" lined at the bottom of every page.
-- alternatively, pay some money to the project, and opt-out of the "powered by" rule, and still be eligible for support.

please note that i am only talking about the "powered by" line - the actual copyright notice embedded in every file is a different matter altogether.

so here are MarshalRusty's message, and my response for each part:
Marshalrusty wrote:This has naturally been brought up before.

We are an open source project and we have no intention of ever charging money for any version of phpBB. Why would you want us to?
you seem to be in complete misunderstanding of the question, so your answer seems to be irrelevant.
there is no *legal* obligation of anyone to place the "powered by" line at the bottom of the page.
nice.
however, phpbb group has a policy of not providing support for sites which have removed it.
also nice.
now, the question is about "buying back" the support option for sites which have removed the copyright notice.
in other words: the suggested payment is *not* for the right to use the software (as your answer implies), it is for the right to receive support through this site *despite* removing the "powered by" line.
this looks simple, elegant, and 100% within the spirit of GPL (if you actually bother to *read* the license you'll find there specific mention of support-for-pay being absolutely in accordance with the GPL word and spirit)
Marshalrusty wrote: I likewise don't understand why someone would purchase the product to remove the credit line; it doesn't take up much space and everyone familiar with bulletin board software knows the truth anyway, so it just looks silly to them.
this is irrelevant: it is not important for the site owner that you'll understand why they choose to design their site one way or another. it is their choice. the question is not about why they chose to do it, the question is about being flexible with who we give support: currently we have an iron rule "place the 'powered by' line at the bottom, else there's no support". the suggestion here is to make it more flexible: "keep the 'powered by' line at the bottom, *or* contribute to the project, else there's no support".
beautiful in its simplicity, and may provide some cash towards lofty goals, such as helping with travel expanses to key team members helping them to attend one of the "XXXXXXX-invasion" events.
Marshalrusty wrote: I could potentially see us setting up some kind of paid support program for large professional users at some point in the future (although there are currently no plans whatsoever to proceed with this), but that too would have nothing to do with the credit line.
any news on this "pay for support" program? is it still discussed? could you (or any other team member) give a short update regarding this plan?

and as a side: regarding the last sentence, it would have *everything* to do with the "powered by" line: as mentioned above, the "powered by" line is not required by the license, and is forced only by the "no support" rule. anyone who buys support obviously is not affected by the "no support" rule, right?


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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Pony99CA » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:56 am

arod-1 wrote:
Marshalrusty wrote: I could potentially see us setting up some kind of paid support program for large professional users at some point in the future (although there are currently no plans whatsoever to proceed with this), but that too would have nothing to do with the credit line.
[...]

and as a side: regarding the last sentence, it would have *everything* to do with the "powered by" line: as mentioned above, the "powered by" line is not required by the license, and is forced only by the "no support" rule. anyone who buys support obviously is not affected by the "no support" rule, right?
Not necessarily. That's would you and I would hope. However, Rusty's mention of "large professional users" could be talking about "priority support" for businesses and organizations heavily dependent on phpBB (perhaps a developer or support member would help them individually on the phone or in chat?). In that case, they could still require the credit line (which would be a mistake, IMHO, but the credit line and paid support could be independent).

As you requested, clarification is needed.

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Re: Copyright removal

Post by Daniel Exe » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:10 am

Marshalrusty wrote: I could potentially see us setting up some kind of paid support program for large professional users at some point in the future (although there are currently no plans whatsoever to proceed with this), but that too would have nothing to do with the credit line.
Canonical has a good system going - no reason not to be inspired by it. Ubuntu has one of the most active support communities out there, yet enterprises are none-the-less willing to pay for a quick and high-priority response.

As for the credit line, I'd never remove it as a show of respect for the project. When I see sites that use phpBB but don't credit it, I generally leave pretty quickly - It's just a bad first impression. Knowing the difference between someone who "paid" to remove it and someone who just did would be impossible for the average browser, as well.
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