Is it un American to hire a pro?

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LynnBrant
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Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by LynnBrant » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:54 am

I've put in a lot of hours getting a php board up and running on my website. I know nothing about html and find most of the supposedly simple step by step help posts to be incomprehensible. Hey, I'm an expert at things that would baffle you. So why is it that it's treated like a sin around here to want to pay someone to do what it would take too much of my time to learn to do, and which I really don't want to learn to do?

I really don't understand this. In other areas of expertise there are lots of people eager to find some paid work. But here all I'm told is look for team members who advertise paid help in their signatures. So I spend more time digging through posts looking for that and finding none. Now my choices are to keep a php board that isn't the way I want it, or scrap all the time I've put in and go to some other product where I can hire help if I need it.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Marshalrusty » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:44 pm

LynnBrant wrote:Is it un American to hire a pro?
I would say that it's only un-American if you hire a socialist to do it. Because, let's be honest, these folks are running around everywhere and you have to be really really careful. I think I saw one on here the other day and ran away for a few hours.
LynnBrant wrote:I've put in a lot of hours getting a php board up and running on my website. I know nothing about html and find most of the supposedly simple step by step help posts to be incomprehensible. Hey, I'm an expert at things that would baffle you. So why is it that it's treated like a sin around here to want to pay someone to do what it would take too much of my time to learn to do, and which I really don't want to learn to do?

I really don't understand this. In other areas of expertise there are lots of people eager to find some paid work. But here all I'm told is look for team members who advertise paid help in their signatures. So I spend more time digging through posts looking for that and finding none. Now my choices are to keep a php board that isn't the way I want it, or scrap all the time I've put in and go to some other product where I can hire help if I need it.
As was explained previously, it is mostly due to belief that things will get out of hand. We may be in the process of rethinking this policy, however we cannot just create an extra forum and let people do whatever they want. The forum would be used for spam, and people would get ripped off. In the best case scenario, they would be angry and in the worst case, their anger would be directed at us for facilitating such a thing. In the meantime, there are many people who offer services in their signatures. You can look through their posting records, etc. to decide whether you want to trust the person. You can likewise request quotes from multiple people and ask them questions before entering a contract.

As I said, we are currently rethinking this policy, but the issues above remain open for the time being.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by MichaelC » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:17 pm

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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Pony99CA » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:26 pm

LynnBrant wrote:I've put in a lot of hours getting a php board up and running on my website. I know nothing about html and find most of the supposedly simple step by step help posts to be incomprehensible. Hey, I'm an expert at things that would baffle you. So why is it that it's treated like a sin around here to want to pay someone to do what it would take too much of my time to learn to do, and which I really don't want to learn to do?
Read the Why Is Recruiting Against the Rules? topic. That's why I started it.
Marshalrusty wrote:We may be in the process of rethinking this policy, however we cannot just create an extra forum and let people do whatever they want. The forum would be used for spam, and people would get ripped off. In the best case scenario, they would be angry and in the worst case, their anger would be directed at us for facilitating such a thing. In the meantime, there are many people who offer services in their signatures.
And they won't get mad at you if they get ripped off because you allow "services" posts in signatures?

You deal with a similar phenomenon already -- people getting mad at you because admins or users of phpBB boards do stupid things. People still come here to complain as if it's somehow your fault, and you have a process to deal with those complaints. Dealing with service complaints wouldn't be much different, would it?
Marshalrusty wrote:You can look through their posting records, etc. to decide whether you want to trust the person. You can likewise request quotes from multiple people and ask them questions before entering a contract.
If there were a recruiting forum as I mentioned in the link above, people could still browse posting records, request quotes and ask questions, so I'm not sure what the real difference is here.

Again, I don't personally care if recruiting is allowed or not. It just seems silly to "partially" allow it in signatures and to lock recruiting posts (thereby keeping them online and searchable) instead of just deleting them. Recruiting should either be allowed (with appropriate guidelines and warnings) or forbidden completely in the forums (users could obviously PM people who seemed competent and offer money for help, but that's outside of the forums).

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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by SamG » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:36 pm

Pony99CA wrote:
Marshalrusty wrote:We may be in the process of rethinking this policy, however we cannot just create an extra forum and let people do whatever they want. The forum would be used for spam, and people would get ripped off. In the best case scenario, they would be angry and in the worst case, their anger would be directed at us for facilitating such a thing. In the meantime, there are many people who offer services in their signatures.
And they won't get mad at you if they get ripped off because you allow "services" posts in signatures?

You deal with a similar phenomenon already -- people getting mad at you because admins or users of phpBB boards do stupid things. People still come here to complain as if it's somehow your fault, and you have a process to deal with those complaints. Dealing with service complaints wouldn't be much different, would it?
It may. People have argued that advertisers should be vetted because of bad experiences with an advertiser, for example, but I haven't seen people mount the same argument about signature content. The idea of some sort of official endorsement comes with advertising space in a way that seems different from the personal space of a signature.

That doesn't meant that a distinct place for recruiting is a bad idea in itself, I don't think. My own opinion is that the spam concern Marshalrusty mentioned is the biggest single roadblock.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Pony99CA » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:29 pm

SamG wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:
Marshalrusty wrote:We may be in the process of rethinking this policy, however we cannot just create an extra forum and let people do whatever they want. The forum would be used for spam, and people would get ripped off. In the best case scenario, they would be angry and in the worst case, their anger would be directed at us for facilitating such a thing. In the meantime, there are many people who offer services in their signatures.
And they won't get mad at you if they get ripped off because you allow "services" posts in signatures?

You deal with a similar phenomenon already -- people getting mad at you because admins or users of phpBB boards do stupid things. People still come here to complain as if it's somehow your fault, and you have a process to deal with those complaints. Dealing with service complaints wouldn't be much different, would it?
It may. People have argued that advertisers should be vetted because of bad experiences with an advertiser, for example, but I haven't seen people mount the same argument about signature content. The idea of some sort of official endorsement comes with advertising space in a way that seems different from the personal space of a signature.
phpBB is getting paid by advertisers; they wouldn't get paid for the recruiting forum. A place for people to offer to pay for services doesn't give any special recognition to them. (See below for more.)
SamG wrote:That doesn't meant that a distinct place for recruiting is a bad idea in itself, I don't think. My own opinion is that the spam concern Marshalrusty mentioned is the biggest single roadblock.
I think I addressed that pretty well in my linked thread. Only people requesting help would be able to post in the Recruiting forum; people offering to provide help would not be allowed to post there. Any response to somebody offering to pay would have to be done via PM. (Offering services in your signature would still be allowed, of course.)

Also, the requests would have to be for technical issues -- installing phpBB or MODs, creating MODs or styles, etc. The forum I envision would not allow recruiting for Moderators or users. Plus, any help being requested would have to be in an existing Support forum; only the offer to pay and a link to the Support topic would be allowed in the Recruiting forum.

After further thought, I might also allow the original poster to post follow-ups, like who helped him and how well (or poorly) the service was done. That would allow the feedback to be searchable.

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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by SamG » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:52 am

Pony99CA wrote:phpBB is getting paid by advertisers; they wouldn't get paid for the recruiting forum. A place for people to offer to pay for services doesn't give any special recognition to them.
It may. The people spending money on services obtained through an "official" phpBB.com forum may think of those services in the same way people spending money with advertisers think of phpBB.com's "official" ad space.
Pony99CA wrote:Only people requesting help would be able to post in the Recruiting forum; people offering to provide help would not be allowed to post there.
It is possible for people posting in such a forum to abuse it, regardless of who is and is not allowed to post there. The mere possibility does not mean that the idea has no value, of course, but it does mean that a new set of rules have to be written and enforced, and that's part of the discussion of the idea.
Pony99CA wrote:Also, the requests would have to be for technical issues -- installing phpBB or MODs, creating MODs or styles, etc. The forum I envision would not allow recruiting for Moderators or users. Plus, any help being requested would have to be in an existing Support forum; only the offer to pay and a link to the Support topic would be allowed in the Recruiting forum.
Sure. Still, that requires a new set of rules to be written and enforced.

Raising these issues doesn't make the idea bad. But they are legitimate discussion items.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Pony99CA » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:23 am

SamG wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:phpBB is getting paid by advertisers; they wouldn't get paid for the recruiting forum. A place for people to offer to pay for services doesn't give any special recognition to them.
It may. The people spending money on services obtained through an "official" phpBB.com forum may think of those services in the same way people spending money with advertisers think of phpBB.com's "official" ad space.
And they'd be wrong. How is that any different than people who think phpBB.com controls all phpBB boards worldwide? There's a policy to deal with that -- you tell them phpBB.com has no control over services provided.
SamG wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:Only people requesting help would be able to post in the Recruiting forum; people offering to provide help would not be allowed to post there.
It is possible for people posting in such a forum to abuse it, regardless of who is and is not allowed to post there. The mere possibility does not mean that the idea has no value, of course, but it does mean that a new set of rules have to be written and enforced, and that's part of the discussion of the idea.
Writing rules is easy. Enforcement may require extra moderators, of course, but there's a process for getting Modertors. (Haven't you become one recently, by the way? ;))
SamG wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:Also, the requests would have to be for technical issues -- installing phpBB or MODs, creating MODs or styles, etc. The forum I envision would not allow recruiting for Moderators or users. Plus, any help being requested would have to be in an existing Support forum; only the offer to pay and a link to the Support topic would be allowed in the Recruiting forum.
Sure. Still, that requires a new set of rules to be written and enforced.
See the above. (Maybe I'm wrong about writing being easy, though -- the rules still haven't been changed to make it clear what bumping is and which forums the six-hour rule applies to. :roll:)
SamG wrote:Raising these issues doesn't make the idea bad. But they are legitimate discussion items.
Agreed. I just think that people worry too much. Write the rules, create the forum and see what happens. At worst, you may need some more moderators and some users who can't read (or shouldn't breed) will be warned or banned. :D

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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Tripp » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:04 am

Pony99CA wrote:
SamG wrote:Raising these issues doesn't make the idea bad. But they are legitimate discussion items.
Agreed. I just think that people worry too much. Write the rules, create the forum and see what happens. At worst, you may need some more moderators and some users who can't read (or shouldn't breed) will be warned or banned. :D

Steve
You obviously have very little idea how much work moderators already have. :)

But as said, this has a huge hole to be abused and until phpBB has a conveying reason to make a forum like this, I don't see it happening. Not to mention, a Google search would probably bring up quite a few people who provide these services.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by SamG » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:22 am

Pony99CA wrote:And they'd be wrong. How is that any different than people who think phpBB.com controls all phpBB boards worldwide?
Of course they'd be wrong. The point remains that where there is money and the appearance of an endorsement involved, people may perceive things differently. The policy isn't the point, the perception is. That's exactly where teams members and community members butted heads in the defunct "Show-Off" forum, over the perception that phpBB.com was not being helpful in its handling of the forum. There is no harm to the current idea in saying so.
Pony99CA wrote:... there's a process for getting Modertors. (Haven't you become one recently, by the way?)
For the third time, over my long career here. The fact that they had to dig into the ranks of old, curmudgeon Former Team Members to add me is probably an example of how not-so-easy it is to get and keep moderators more than that there's a process in place. ;)
Pony99CA wrote:I just think that people worry too much. Write the rules, create the forum and see what happens. At worst, you may need some more moderators and some users who can't read (or shouldn't breed) will be warned or banned.
I don't disagree. But this isn't all that hypothetical: The creation, maintenance, and demise of the Show-Off forum are a model of something nobody here who remembers wants to repeat. And some good people left over the whole thing, some solid community members, never to return. The end and the events leading up to it were very unpleasant for all, and yet to this day people ask, "What's the big deal?" Once bitten, twice shy, if nothing else.

So I suppose it's possible to have a "What's the big deal?" approach to this idea, and in the process be a little too quick to dismiss team member comments and/or reservations. In any case, if the bosses say we're going to do it on a trial basis, I personally won't object.
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:37 am

it must have been a long time ago. I have been here since 2003 and don't remember ever seeing that forum.


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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by SamG » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:47 am

I don't remember the dates, but apparently it was still there in late 2003:

http://web.archive.org/web/200310081521 ... com/phpBB/

And gone by early 2004:

http://web.archive.org/web/200404012137 ... com/phpBB/
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Re: Is it un American to hire a pro?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:50 pm

SamG wrote:I don't remember the dates, but apparently it was still there in late 2003:

http://web.archive.org/web/200310081521 ... com/phpBB/

And gone by early 2004:

http://web.archive.org/web/200404012137 ... com/phpBB/
well it was late in 2003 when I discovered phpbb by clicking on the copyright link from here:
internet-marketing-forum. com
which as it turns out was run by a crook and I even bought a special plaque and had it delivered to him in Ohio.

boy was I gullible back then.

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