phpBB Falling Behind?

Do not post support requests, bug reports or feature requests. Discuss phpBB here. Non-phpBB related discussion goes in General Discussion!
Ideas Centre
Locked
Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Pony99CA »

t_backoff wrote:
jsbean wrote:I don't see why it would hurt to take donations and get a few other devs to work on it. The devs that got paid from "donations" wouldn't be the old devs, we still need the current ones and other volunteers (and really there's no reason why some of the donations couldnt go to the current devs either, because they've done a terrific job thus far)
[...] while donations may help, I'm not sure it would be enough to pay a small group of developers (or even one for that matter).
Agreed. Unless phpBB becomes like Mozilla and can pay full-time developers, what are the odds that phpBB development would really speed up? Let's see what kind of developers you might get if you don't pay them a real full-time salary.
  • Unemployed developers. They'd be happy for any income and so might be very productive -- until they got a real full-time job. Then they'd be just like the current phpBB development team, having to prioritize their real jobs and lives with their phpBB work.
  • Programmers looking to supplement their income. These people take "contract" style projects to earn extra money. However, when their "real" job demands more of their time, guess which project loses. They'd basically be just like the current developers (although possibly even less motivated because they'd be doing it for the money, not necessarily because they believed in phpBB).
  • Independently wealthy developers with lots of time on their hands. These would be wonderful, but how many of them really exist -- and how many would want to work on phpBB?
I think that you might get some additional boost for a while, but I think it would eventually settle back to where things are now (at least with the first two types).

As for paying the existing development team, while I'm sure they'd appreciate it, how many would really be able to devote more time to the project? Unless it's treated as a wage (you get paid for what you do), I think most might treat it as a donation thanking them for the work that they've already done. If you treat it as a wage, saying something like "If you implement feature X by time Y we can pay you Z dollars", would people be willing to stop spending Y time on the rest of their lives for X dollars? I don't know.

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.
Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Pony99CA »

t_backoff wrote:
keith10456 wrote:In reference to feature requests, RFCs, where they should be posted (here or Area51), etc., I think the initial RFC should be posted in Area51.
Area51 is where development discussions take place, so they should be posted there.
True, but I view RFCs (Requests For Comments) more as requirements gathering than development. RFCs flesh out the high-level design of what the feature does; development actually implements the how part (how it works in the phpBB framework).

That's why my proposal had RFCs start here, where lots of people could comment on them, and only move to Area 51 once the requirement was accepted (and development would start).
keith10456 wrote:After comments, etc. is received, at the dev team's discretion (based on posted feedback, the direction of phpBB, etc), then the dev team should post a poll (or something similar) here for the community to vote on. This will give the dev team a better idea of how the community feel about the respective feature.
A poll isn't the right way to do it, though, because all features aren't equally easy to implement. A better way is what I call (for lack of a better term) the "funding metaphor". Assume every user is given $100 and presented with a menu of potential features, each with their own cost between $1 and $100 (representing the difficulty of implementing that feature). Each user gets to allocate their $100 toward a group of features costing no more than $100. That's how people vote.

Deciding which features to implement is a little trickier. You can look at which features got the most money and keep picking features that got progressively less money until no more will fit in the $100, or you can look at which features got the most votes and keep picking features that got progressively fewer votes until no more will fit in the $100.

Here's a simple example based on no reality whatsoever. The menu is:
  1. Hooks $50
  2. Events $75
  3. Calendar $40
  4. User blogs $25
  5. Subscribers have option to be notified of every post $5
  6. Subscription notices have option to include text of post $5
  7. Only topic starter and authorized groups can view a topic $10
I vote for items 2, 5, 6 and 7 for a total of $95. You vote for items 1, 3, 5, and 6 for a total of $100.

By votes, 5 and 6 would definitely be implemented because they got the most votes (2 each), leaving $90 to be allocated. Item 4 won't be implemented because it didn't get any votes. Now it gets trickier. Because the other features 1, 2, 3 and 7 only got one vote each, how do we pick those?

We could go by choosing the most expensive (the hardest to fit in) first, thus choosing 2 (leaving $15), then 7 (leaving $5 and mothing else). So that gives us 2, 5, 6 and 7.

We could also lean toward choosing the most features that fit, meaning 7 (leaving $80), then 3 (leaving leaving $40). Now, nothing else that got votes and hasn't already been chosen will fit, so we'd pick 4 just because it could fit (leaving $15 and nothing more). (Presumably, in the real world, nothing would get zero votes, but I liked this example.) So that gives us 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

Going by total dollars, we'd pick 2 (leaving $25), then 5 and 6 (leaving $15) -- they got $10 total, just like 7, but the tie goes to the number of votes -- then 7 (leaving $5). So that gives us 2, 5, 6 and 7 (coincidentally just like the first alternative going by votes).
t_backoff wrote:Nobody is stopping "joe admin" from registering at Area51 and posting a RFC topic. Anyone is welcome to register and post a RFC for whatever they feel will benefit the community as a whole. Such topics as "I want this feature. kthxbye!" is not a proper RFC. There are plenty of examples of what an proper RFC looks like. If you feel something should be added, by all means, start a topic. The worst the development team can say is "Thanks, but no thanks!". :D
What's stopping them is 1) finding out about Area 51 in the first place, 2) the hassle of registering yet another account when they already have one here and 3) being intimidated at the more "development-like" attitude there. Area 51 isn't so much a place for casual admins (who may still have requirements for phpBB) as it is a place for developers and those interested in development talk.

As for Keith's comment about getting lots of duplicate RFCs, I've already addressed that. First, moderators can merge them together (or link to the existing one and lock the new one). Second, we get numerous duplicate discussion and support topics, but that hasn't brought things to a standstill.

We could even provide an RFC template (similar to the Support Request Template) that people would have to fill out before posting an RFC (regardless of where RFCs are started). That "pain" of filling that out might cause people to search for existing RFCs first instead of just starting another topic. Topics without an appropriate RFC template at the start could be locked until the OP sent a moderator the template.

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.
Oleg
Former Team Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Oleg »

You may be interested in two topics currently being discussed on area51:

Development Team / Community Liasion

RFC Process Change Suggestion

The short version is the development team is perfectly ok with the community discussing new features and any other development-related issues on phpbb.com forums as long as actual development continues to take place on area51 and the established development processes are followed.

However, this idea needs a champion to implement it. I advocated for something like this before I joined the development team, but now I have so many things on my to-do list that me reposting topics from area51 to phpbb.com simply can't happen any time soon. This reposting does not have to be done by a development team member, so if anyone reading this feels sufficiently strongly about this idea they need to step up and do it.

---

Regarding voting for features, you need to keep in mind that we have a lot of patches which are incomplete. What happens with just about all non-trivial patches that are submitted, be that by the community or by development team members, is the initial implementation typically does not pass review or testing in some way and needs to be changed, expanded or adjusted somehow. Frequently the original submitter does not see this work through completion. As a result, right now the development team can probably spend at least a full year (at the current development pace) finishing patches that someone started work on but did not finish. Starting work on more new features does not help with this situation, and recently the trend has been to work on one or few things at a time and get them finished instead of starting work on a ton of different things and abandoning all of them.
Participate in phpBB development: Get involved | Issue tracker | Report a bug | Development board | [url=irc://chat.freenode.net/phpbb-dev]Development IRC chat[/url]
My stuff: mindlinkgame.com
Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 4783
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Hollister, CA
Name: Steve
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Pony99CA »

Oleg wrote:However, this idea needs a champion to implement it. I advocated for something like this before I joined the development team, but now I have so many things on my to-do list that me reposting topics from area51 to phpbb.com simply can't happen any time soon. This reposting does not have to be done by a development team member, so if anyone reading this feels sufficiently strongly about this idea they need to step up and do it.
What "reposting" are you referring to? Reposting all current RFCs here? If so, before that's done, there should be a Feature Requests/RFCs forum here, I think.

Even then, I wasn't advocating moving existing RFCs here; I just think that new RFCs should start here. If somebody started an RFC here that was already being worked on at Area 51, we could just point them to that discussion.
Oleg wrote:Regarding voting for features, you need to keep in mind that we have a lot of patches which are incomplete. What happens with just about all non-trivial patches that are submitted, be that by the community or by development team members, is the initial implementation typically does not pass review or testing in some way and needs to be changed, expanded or adjusted somehow. Frequently the original submitter does not see this work through completion. As a result, right now the development team can probably spend at least a full year (at the current development pace) finishing patches that someone started work on but did not finish.
If somebody abandons a patch (I presume that's Git-speak for a new feature) and that patch isn't close to being finished, it should be dropped. Accepted RFCs should be worked on by Development only, not accepted because somebody is working on a patch. If you choose to accept a patch that is finished, that's just gravy beyond the accepted RFCs.
Oleg wrote:Starting work on more new features does not help with this situation, and recently the trend has been to work on one or few things at a time and get them finished instead of starting work on a ton of different things and abandoning all of them.
That seems like an obvious thing. Features should be implemented serially, not parallel (in general), by a given developer. That also makes it easier to cut off a development cycle and make a release.

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.
Oleg
Former Team Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Oleg »

Pony99CA wrote: What "reposting" are you referring to? Reposting all current RFCs here? If so, before that's done, there should be a Feature Requests/RFCs forum here, I think.
My point was that any proposals for discussing phpbb development outside of area51 needed someone (not on development team) to actually make them a reality, otherwise they would never get past the talking phase.

I believe the rest of your post does not call for a reply, therefore I will stop here.
Participate in phpBB development: Get involved | Issue tracker | Report a bug | Development board | [url=irc://chat.freenode.net/phpbb-dev]Development IRC chat[/url]
My stuff: mindlinkgame.com
User avatar
tbackoff
Former Team Member
Posts: 7064
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:41 am
Location: cheerleading practice
Name: Tabitha Backoff

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by tbackoff »

Pony99CA wrote:I just think that new RFCs should start here. If somebody started an RFC here that was already being worked on at Area 51, we could just point them to that discussion.
Why have RFCs posted in 2 different places? We are trying to get users involved, not confuse them. :?

I, too, am stopping here. I've spent enough time here trying to (IMO) defend some of phpBB's process decisions (development only at Area51, for example).
Flying is the second best thrill to cheerleaders; being caught is the first.
User avatar
3Di
Former Team Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Milano 🇮🇹 - Frankfurt 🇩🇪
Name: Marco
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by 3Di »

t_backoff wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:I just think that new RFCs should start here. If somebody started an RFC here that was already being worked on at Area 51, we could just point them to that discussion.
Why have RFCs posted in 2 different places? We are trying to get users involved, not confuse them. :?

I, too, am stopping here. I've spent enough time here trying to (IMO) defend some of phpBB's process decisions (development only at Area51, for example).
Are you speaking for yourself here? Have you followed area51 in the last week?

http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 87#p231487
To request support for our extensions you can also contact me here: phpBB Studio

Please PM me only to request paid works. Thx. Want to compensate me for my interest? Donate
My development's activity º PhpStorm's proud user º Extensions, Scripts, MOD porting, Update/Upgrades
🚀 Looking for a specific feature or alternative option? We will rock you! 🚀
User avatar
nextgen
Jr. Style Validator
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:58 pm
Location: Guatemala
Name: Melvin García
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by nextgen »

What is not right to keep a dialogue between users and team lead to situations like the ones generated here. :)
No user will want to register again for discussion in the area 51...
メルビン・ガルシア • phpBB Development StylesphpBB Argentina - Soporte en español 🇦🇷

Please do NOT contact for support via PM or email.
User avatar
3Di
Former Team Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Milano 🇮🇹 - Frankfurt 🇩🇪
Name: Marco
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by 3Di »

nextgen wrote:What is not right to keep a dialogue between users and team lead to situations like the ones generated here. :)
No user will want to register again for discussion in the area 51...
Yes, that's true.. that's why I suggested in the above linked post there to somehow sync these 2 stuffs, please read it if you not already did. :)
To request support for our extensions you can also contact me here: phpBB Studio

Please PM me only to request paid works. Thx. Want to compensate me for my interest? Donate
My development's activity º PhpStorm's proud user º Extensions, Scripts, MOD porting, Update/Upgrades
🚀 Looking for a specific feature or alternative option? We will rock you! 🚀
User avatar
callumacrae
Former Team Member
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: London, UK
Name: Callum Macrae
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by callumacrae »

Pony99CA wrote: If somebody abandons a patch (I presume that's Git-speak for a new feature) and that patch isn't close to being finished, it should be dropped. Accepted RFCs should be worked on by Development only, not accepted because somebody is working on a patch. If you choose to accept a patch that is finished, that's just gravy beyond the accepted RFCs.
Are you suggesting that only developers should impliment RFCs?
macr.ae = my website. you probably won't like it.
Proud user ofProud user of
User avatar
Petrikuhr
Registered User
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:04 pm
Location: Hackney, UK

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Petrikuhr »

Oleg wrote:
Pony99CA wrote: What "reposting" are you referring to? Reposting all current RFCs here? If so, before that's done, there should be a Feature Requests/RFCs forum here, I think.
My point was that any proposals for discussing phpbb development outside of area51 needed someone (not on development team) to actually make them a reality, otherwise they would never get past the talking phase.

I believe the rest of your post does not call for a reply, therefore I will stop here.
Oleg, are you referring to the physical re-posting of active discussions from Area51 over here or the implementation of changes derived from said discussions. The first part is very easily carried out in the sense of re-posting but if implementation is expected then everyday people like myself will step back with hands up saying "whoa, too scary!"

I see the problem here as I believe many have already seen, two places for discussing one subject will result in a fractured train of thought, the only way to keep both boards linear would be to somehow have new replies in relevant threads from both boards simultaneously submitted to both boards. There would become a sense of time fragmentation or dislocation of the base discussion progress otherwise, it would serve only to frustrate and further stagnate any hopes of progress having two separated discussions per subject.

It almost feels as if the baseline concept of both sites is being lost here, to my mind this site is for the release of stable versions of phpbb and of course for support to those using the software, Area51 is the development side of things. I feel a potential cause for this loss in focus is due to Area51 not restricting itself to Development alone, there are support areas on that site where support should ideally be held here alone.

Perhaps a stronger stance to maintain would be to keep each site solidly as they were intended, development doesn't belong here and phpbb support doesn't belong on Area51. That's just my 2 cents anyheeeew. ;)
Oleg
Former Team Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Oleg »

Original69Sin wrote: Oleg, are you referring to the physical re-posting of active discussions from Area51 over here or the implementation of changes derived from said discussions. The first part is very easily carried out in the sense of re-posting but if implementation is expected then everyday people like myself will step back with hands up saying "whoa, too scary!"
Neither, you are reading the "reposting" part too literally. Here is what I said in this topic which mirrors what had previously been said on area51:
Oleg wrote: The short version is the development team is perfectly ok with the community discussing new features and any other development-related issues on phpbb.com forums as long as actual development continues to take place on area51 and the established development processes are followed.
As you see, we want to keep development on area51.

What we don't have (enough of) presently is community's knowledge of what is going on with phpbb development. In order for this situation to improve someone has to inform the community as to what is going on with the development. Obviously copy-pasting entire topics from area51 to phpbb.com is not going to be ideal, as anyone who wants that level of detail can participate on area51 in the first place. I expect "reposting" to be more of a summarization of important decisions, or key alternatives if a decision was not made yet.

Looking at the opposite direction, copy-pasting the entire mod requests forum into area51 is similarly not going to achieve much.
Original69Sin wrote: I see the problem here as I believe many have already seen, two places for discussing one subject will result in a fractured train of thought
This is why we are discussing the development team / community liaison role. That person would be responsible for taking important topics under consideration on area51, presenting them to the community in a community-friendly way, organizing community consensus on what should be done and then communicating this consensus back to the development team in the relevant area51 topics. (This would be an example of what the liaison could do.)
Participate in phpBB development: Get involved | Issue tracker | Report a bug | Development board | [url=irc://chat.freenode.net/phpbb-dev]Development IRC chat[/url]
My stuff: mindlinkgame.com
User avatar
Petrikuhr
Registered User
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:04 pm
Location: Hackney, UK

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Petrikuhr »

Ah, much clearer now, thank you for your reply Oleg. :)
User avatar
Lawofthesnake
Registered User
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:51 pm

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Lawofthesnake »

Well I'd just like to throw my two cents in here...

I used to love phpbb in fact its the first board I started out with and how I learned some coding skills but phpbb3 has fallen behind the times and if you look at other free forum software out there you'd clearly be able to see this. I have converted all my boards from phpbb3 to mybb as its much easier to use (and even if their community sucks and their support is no where as good as yours).

The primary reason that people use phpbb is because of the great community you have here and your size but I'd have to agree that phpbb has fallen way behind the times. Mybb can get releases out in a decent amount of time compared to phpbb and they are even speeding up that process. Based on the current track Id say mybb 2.0 and phpbb 3.1 will be released at the same time while phpbb 3.1 doesnt even seem to compare to the features that are in the mybb 1.6 line.

People want ajax to speed up the forums, the ability to turn off redirection pages without a mod, easily install mods/plugins without having to worry about those things breaking the theme or having to do manual code editing. Phpbb has a lot of work to do to catch up with free software out there... not just paid. I have a community of about 500 active users and out of those only about 10% wanted to go back to phpbb when we made the switch to mybb. When the users of a forum prefer a diffrent software than phpbb even though I basically ported the same style to mybb that says something. Mybb isnt that popular but its so much easier to use and my users like it so much more.
User avatar
noth
Registered User
Posts: 2487
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:10 pm
Location: North Surrey
Contact:

Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by noth »

Your users like it so much more, what a laugh, I do not believe a word of it

Forum users are famously unaware of what forum software is being used to run their forums, they actually do not want to know, it is the administrators who know this and "care"
500 active users and out of those only about 10% wanted to go back to phpbb

so 450 of your users voted for mybb, yeah right!

can a mod kindly delete the above post? it is quite offensive :?
Locked

Return to “phpBB Discussion”