phpBB Falling Behind?

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MarkTheDaemon
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by MarkTheDaemon »

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: this is just back to the same old thing.... "what I think should be added to the core is correct." ( I know that is not exactly what you said. )
No, you've completely missed my point. The point I was making above is that some MODs have features that could be added to the core as they improve the user experience, but others don't and would bloat the software.

If someone added the idea of ACP user registration to an ideas tracker and nobody wanted it then it shouldn't go into the core, and that is completely fine because it's clear the community doesn't want the functionality.

What I'm saying is we need to ask the community in a more sensible and easier way what they actually want from the software.


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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Lumpy Burgertushie »

MarkTheDaemon wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote: this is just back to the same old thing.... "what I think should be added to the core is correct." ( I know that is not exactly what you said. )
No, you've completely missed my point. The point I was making above is that some MODs have features that could be added to the core as they improve the user experience, but others don't and would bloat the software.

If someone added the idea of ACP user registration to an ideas tracker and nobody wanted it then it shouldn't go into the core, and that is completely fine because it's clear the community doesn't want the functionality.

What I'm saying is we need to ask the community in a more sensible and easier way what they actually want from the software.


Mark
I agree that things that the community at large wants could ( not necessarily should) be considered for inclusion in the core. My point above was that you specifically stated that you thought one particular MOD
( the gallery MOD) is popular but probably should not be added to the code but that one particular MOD ( the add user MOD) should be added because YOU think it should be a part of the core. I agree that it would be a good addition but that is not the point.

I agree with you about making it easier for the community to suggest and discuss these types of things.

The only thing I disagree with in this topic ( not you ) is the idea that just because there are new types of social network projects out there, that phpbb has to become one of them. phpbb is a bulletin board. It always has been a bulletin board and I see no reason why it SHOULD change from that to remain relevant.

Way after the next new social networking fad has come and gone, the bulletin board will still be around and even if phpbb stays just as it is, I believe it will remain at the top of the heap for bulletin board software because that is what it is and it does a great job.

I don't mean to say that phpbb should not make any changes or add any new features etc. I just don't believe it has to in order to remain relevant.

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MarkTheDaemon
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by MarkTheDaemon »

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I agree that things that the community at large wants could ( not necessarily should) be considered for inclusion in the core. My point above was that you specifically stated that you thought one particular MOD ( the gallery MOD) is popular but probably should not be added to the code but that one particular MOD ( the add user MOD) should be added because YOU think it should be a part of the core. I agree that it would be a good addition but that is not the point.
I'm not sure whether I didn't explain what I meant clearly first time or whether you've misunderstood again. I haven't run a board for many years so I don't really want one feature much more than another. I was using the User Add MOD as an example of a feature that could be included in the core because it improves functionality of phpBB as a bulletin board. Gallery functionality is great but it should always remain as a MOD because it isn't what phpBB is designed to do. This doesn't mean that I want User Add MOD included into the phpBB distribution any more than I want Gallery functionality included, but I can see where one would enhance the software in a way that fits within what the project is actually about, a bulletin board system.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:The only thing I disagree with in this topic ( not you ) is the idea that just because there are new types of social network projects out there, that phpbb has to become one of them. phpbb is a bulletin board. It always has been a bulletin board and I see no reason why it SHOULD change from that to remain relevant.

Way after the next new social networking fad has come and gone, the bulletin board will still be around and even if phpbb stays just as it is, I believe it will remain at the top of the heap for bulletin board software because that is what it is and it does a great job.
Totally agree with this apart from the very last bit (see reply below), I don't want to see phpBB turn into some social network atrocity. It should always be a bulletin board system that is easy to use.
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I don't mean to say that phpbb should not make any changes or add any new features etc. I just don't believe it has to in order to remain relevant.
This is where I disagree, and your viewpoint is very complacent if I may say so. There are a number of different options that people can choose from when starting a forum in terms of "free" forum software, and we need to make sure that we are ahead of the competition when it comes to features that enhance the experience of using the product. This doesn't mean turning phpBB into Facebook or Twitter, it just means making sure that we listen to the community and what features they feel would help them and their users in the day to day usage of a board. It also means regular feature releases and an active project that has a buzz around it.


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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Pony99CA »

MarkTheDaemon wrote:I was using the User Add MOD as an example of a feature that could be included in the core because it improves functionality of phpBB as a bulletin board. Gallery functionality is great but it should always remain as a MOD because it isn't what phpBB is designed to do. This doesn't mean that I want User Add MOD included into the phpBB distribution any more than I want Gallery functionality included, but I can see where one would enhance the software in a way that fits within what the project is actually about, a bulletin board system.
So what happens if a user proposes a Gallery and the community expresses great interest (for argument's sake, assume that it got more interest than any of the "real board" updates)? Should the developers just veto that saying "That's not part of a bulletin board" and be done with it?
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:The only thing I disagree with in this topic ( not you ) is the idea that just because there are new types of social network projects out there, that phpbb has to become one of them. phpbb is a bulletin board. It always has been a bulletin board and I see no reason why it SHOULD change from that to remain relevant.

Way after the next new social networking fad has come and gone, the bulletin board will still be around and even if phpbb stays just as it is, I believe it will remain at the top of the heap for bulletin board software because that is what it is and it does a great job.
That depends on the market, doesn't it? I can imagine that buggy whip manufacturers thought that there was no reason that they should change their business when the automobile first came out, thinking that buggies had been around long before autos and would continue to be long after the auto "fad" was gone. How did that work for them?

WIll that happen to bulletin boards? I hope not, but I don't know. However, unless you have some precognitive abilities that you haven't shared with us, you don't know, either. ;)
MarkTheDaemon wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:I don't mean to say that phpbb should not make any changes or add any new features etc. I just don't believe it has to in order to remain relevant.
This is where I disagree, and your viewpoint is very complacent if I may say so. There are a number of different options that people can choose from when starting a forum in terms of "free" forum software, and we need to make sure that we are ahead of the competition when it comes to features that enhance the experience of using the product.
Exactly. In a competitive vacuum, Lumpy may well be correct that phpBB wouldn't need to do anything. However, phpBB competes against a number of free and paid alternatives, and not advancing is tantamount to moving backward (because the competition is advancing).

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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by MichaelC »

Pony99CA wrote:So what happens if a user proposes a Gallery and the community expresses great interest (for argument's sake, assume that it got more interest than any of the "real board" updates)? Should the developers just veto that saying "That's not part of a bulletin board" and be done with it?
Its a crude way to put it but if someone suggested that a feature to be added to the phpBB Core that isn't part of a Bulletin board then, yes most likely. If people want a CMS, they can get a CMS. If they want a blog, then can get a blog. If they want a bulletin board then they can get a bulletin board without all the extra bloat that would just get in their way and if we added CMS and Blogs etc. it would take a lot of development time away from the bulletin board itself meaning that bit of the software wouldn't be as good and wouldn't have as many BB features.

However for some people who use more than one software on their website then they can use modifications and bridges and Rhea (although this is at least a few years in the future) will add massive amounts of integration opportunities & potential due to it being based on the symfony 2 framework.

If people were asked to vote on whether or not to add CMS & Blog functionality to phpBB the chances are it would get a lot of support from board/website administrators. But that would make it into a CMS, a blog and a BB. phpBB is a bulletin board, not a CMS, not a blog and not a gallery, its even in the name and it won't expand into other markets in the very same product as I doubt any BB would do, for e.g. vBulletin refrained from doing that with moving its CMS, Blog and BB combination into a separate package and if phpBB were to introduce a combination I would guess they would probably do something similar.
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by nextgen »

Pony99CA wrote:So what happens if a user proposes a Gallery and the community expresses great interest (for argument's sake, assume that it got more interest than any of the "real board" updates)? Should the developers just veto that saying "That's not part of a bulletin board" and be done with it?
This must include certain features at the time of proposing some inclusions.
Pony99CA wrote:Exactly. In a competitive vacuum, Lumpy may well be correct that phpBB wouldn't need to do anything. However, phpBB competes against a number of free and paid alternatives, and not advancing is tantamount to moving backward (because the competition is advancing).
The competition puts the same software and if they will live thought the other boards I think they run out of ideas. :)

In my personal opinion the success of any product should hang harmony that exists between developer and user, phpBB has to think how to bring the development process in mind the average user, the same user to be valid at the time to propose something.

Many who are involved in phpBB we know what we want to see on our message boards and that is what is actually needed. ;)
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Oleg »

I don't know why this only really hit me today but as far as development goes phpbb is indeed more "in maintenance mode" than "under active development". We do have new features being added, but I don't think we even have an equivalent of one full time developer working on the code.

Someone mentioned release frequency of wordpress. I looked at one of their release announcements and counted 100+ contributors to that one release, which took 3-4 months (?). phpbb has less than 100 total contributors on github since we moved to github 2 years ago.

It is safe to say that the current development team is not going to somehow produce more than it does already. Talking about how development is not happening will achieve precisely zilch.

The only way development will be getting done faster is if we have more contributors.

And another thing. I looked at a number of patches in the last year that I've been on the green team. Many times the work needed to take a patch from the state it was submitted in to the state where it can be merged exceeds the work that went into writing said patch in the first place. Right now patches frequently get abandoned and then it falls on the development team to fix them and make them work properly in all possible situations. Sure, this is expected to some degree, but I think it happens way more frequently than it should.

Thus I have to ask: why is it that we are not seeing more community contribution to phpbb development?
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

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Oleg wrote:Thus I have to ask: why is it that we are not seeing more community contribution to phpbb development?
I don't enjoy contributing. It reminds me of playing a MMORPG
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

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Oleg wrote:Thus I have to ask: why is it that we are not seeing more community contribution to phpbb development?
Provide incentives. The 2010 Summer of MODs for example. That contest spurred some life into the MOD authoring community here, and good attempts were made at each of the MODs requested in that contest. Maybe a development contest of some sort could stimulate contribution.
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by igorw »

Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:if one knows what they are doing, then phpbb2 is very secure.
Dogs and things wrote:As far as I know there's hasn´t been a case of a hacked phpBB2.0.23 board and phpBB2.0.24 seems to be as secure as it should be.
This is simply not true. phpBB2 has insufficient CSRF protection in so many places.
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by RMcGirr83 »

Oleg wrote:Thus I have to ask: why is it that we are not seeing more community contribution to phpbb development?
Because, speaking for myself, it is more a pain in the ass to open/look at a ticket in Jira and hope I do the patch correctly in Gitnub. Not so much the patched code itself but the actual writing of what it fixes ([PHPBB-30825] blah, blah, blah) which ends up being more trouble than the patch itself.

I have no idea what wordpress is using or what their criteria is for submitting patches but if the K.I.S.S principle isn't used then people just, simply, won't bother which seems to be the case?

Also, some tickets just seem to not be worth it, eg http://tracker.phpbb.com/browse/PHPBB3-9459
my 73 year old father doesn't even use that resolution (800 x 600) and I don't know of anyone that does....so instead of pushing it onto future versions why not just "won't fix"?

BTW, seeing tickets like this one which was created in 2007, or 4 years ago,
http://tracker.phpbb.com/browse/PHPBB3-6641 and just seeing it get pushed to future version fixes sort of let's me think "well, if they don't give a crap why should I?"

There's even one from Dec 2006 where the patch hasn't even been reviewed yet? http://tracker.phpbb.com/browse/PHPBB3-9220
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Dogs and things »

igorw wrote:
Lumpy Burgertushie wrote:if one knows what they are doing, then phpbb2 is very secure.
Dogs and things wrote:As far as I know there's hasn´t been a case of a hacked phpBB2.0.23 board and phpBB2.0.24 seems to be as secure as it should be.
This is simply not true. phpBB2 has insufficient CSRF protection in so many places.
Are you referring to phpBB2.0.23 or 2.0.24?

Do you know of any hacked phpBB2.0.23 board?
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by Erik Frèrejean »

Hacked or not, the fact is that 2.0.23 doesn't have decent CSRF protection. IIRC that has been (or at least work on that started) added to 2.0.24-dev.
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by nextgen »

Oleg wrote:IThus I have to ask: why is it that we are not seeing more community contribution to phpbb development?
The right thing is we are doing for users to contribute to the development. :)
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Re: phpBB Falling Behind?

Post by keith10456 »

After readying the last few posts it appears that part of the problem is the process of getting the patches added... Is there anyway to streamline this process?

Maybe if that process was easier/simpler it would encourage others to contribute.

If I'm a coder but the process of adding fixed/changed code is a pain in the behind then it is going to discourage me from contributing.
Last edited by keith10456 on Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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