The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

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Oleg
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:10 am

You are overlooking a couple of important considerations ;)

1. Most people who invest time in phpbb, be that development or support, choose to be here and not somewhere else.

2. phpbb is developed and supported by volunteers. In a company a boss can make their employees work on whatever the boss wants. This totally does not work for volunteer projects.

Each project has their strong points and their weak points. It seems that your needs are met perfectly by another board solution. This is great but mostly irrelevant to those whose needs are met better by phpbb than by other board software.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:34 am

If there's going to be a takeover/merge, why shouldn't the most popular board system take over the other? phpBB is (supposedly) the most popular and its programmers know how to write more secure code. Why doesn't myBB fold and have its programmers help phpBB implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path?

After that, the myBB team can write officially-supported plug-ins (in other words, fully supported by the phpBB staff) to add the other myBB features to phpBB. Officially-supported plug-ins keep the core light, provide functions that admins can easily add while still being guaranteed to work from release to release (unlike the current MOD system). That would keep the myBB developers active, too. Your plan would have the phpBB developers potentially wander away after their tasks were complete.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:35 am

Oleg wrote:You are overlooking a couple of important considerations ;)

1. Most people who invest time in phpbb, be that development or support, choose to be here and not somewhere else.

2. phpbb is developed and supported by volunteers. In a company a boss can make their employees work on whatever the boss wants. This totally does not work for volunteer projects.

Each project has their strong points and their weak points. It seems that your needs are met perfectly by another board solution. This is great but mostly irrelevant to those whose needs are met better by phpbb than by other board software.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not overlook those considerations.

1. I'm suggesting that it may be time to re-evaluate that choice. Of course, as I've said repeatedly, I don't expect people to change their choice or to agree with me. I expect that it's just wishful thinking. Of course I'm hoping for more, but not expecting more. Additionally, that choice may have been right for them when it was first made, but now it may be because changing is too difficult. Well, lets make that change easy - make it as easy as changing to phpBB 4.0 will (hopefully) be.

2. Again, I don't expect the volunteers to change. I think I made it quite clear that the people involved in phpBB have a strong emotional AND technical attachment to the project and they are unlikely to change that. I am suggesting that I don't think that's a good reason to stick with phpBB if that is not the best course for the phpBB users. Of course whether or not that's the best course for the phpBB users is debatable, as I keep saying.
Last edited by Son of a Beach on Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:00 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:43 am

Pony99CA wrote:If there's going to be a takeover/merge, why shouldn't the most popular board system take over the other? phpBB is (supposedly) the most popular and its programmers know how to write more secure code. Why doesn't myBB fold and have its programmers help phpBB implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path?
I hope you're not seriously suggesting that when two projects, companies, whatever, merge that the resulting project should be based on the most popular one at the expense of what is the best one. That does not sound like a sensible approach to me. Surely the better one should not be scrapped just because it's not as popular. Note that I'm not saying (here) that one is better than the other, just that deciding on which product should take over the other based on which is most popular seems to me to be a bad idea.

If you're talking about myBB in particular, then there are very good reasons why they should not fold into phpBB and help implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path. Firstly, there is no plug in system for phpBB. I think that would be reason enough. But even once 3.1 is released, and the new plugin system is tried and proven, phpBB would most likely still suffer from the same slow development cycle. Until proven otherwise, this should be expected. As you suggest (below), the myBB developers my lose interest and walk away afterwards, leaving phpBB with the same development team, and the same slow development cycle.

Working the other way around, myBB has a much more responsive development cycle, and already has a tried and tested plug in system.
After that, the myBB team can write officially-supported plug-ins (in other words, fully supported by the phpBB staff) to add the other myBB features to phpBB. Officially-supported plug-ins keep the core light, provide functions that admins can easily add while still being guaranteed to work from release to release (unlike the current MOD system). That would keep the myBB developers active, too. Your plan would have the phpBB developers potentially wander away after their tasks were complete.

Steve
I'd be happy with either project merging (or being taken over) by the other, IF it resulted in one product that had the features of both, and more importantly, had a good responsive development cycle based on the requests of the users in a transparent manner. I can't see that happening with phpBB, but I can see it happening with myBB.

phpBB develpers could potentially wander away after their tasks were complete. Yes that's a real possibility. What's the point? The job would get done, all the users would be happy because they had the software that did what they wanted. If the phpBB developers walked away afterwards, then presumably it would be their choice, and therefore they would be happy too. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:49 am

PS. Top notch security is a great goal worth pursuing. But it should not come at the expense of all else. Eventually there's got to be some compromise where people say that the value of that high security does not outweigh the value of this, that, or the other (whatever else may be of value to them). For me, that line has been reached. The most secure system is one that nobody can access, and is therefore useless. Anything else is a compromise, it's just a matter of how much compromise is acceptable.

Note that if I'd submitted this 'PS.' post on myBB, this post would automatically be merged with my previous post (with a <hr> between the contents of the two original posts) - if nobody else posted in between my two posts - within a configured time threshold. ;-)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by -EnYgmA- » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:36 am

Hello,

at the beginning we read ...
I think that in light of the known slow progress of phpBB development, and the existence of other very good free open source forums software out there, the best thing that phpBB can do for its users is to merge with another forums project, provide a seamless migration path for the users to the other software, and to add any features in phpBB that don't already exist in that other software.
two answers below ...
In my proposal, the other product would retain the name of that other system. phpBB would merely be responsible for making a smooth migration path from phpBB to the other system, and for implementing phpBB features that are not yet in that other system.


A very simple question, what is the system that needs most of the other in this story ? :?

Dévellopement that long or not it should take its time to get the best possible code for our forums, others argue more speeds, yes and ? :?

To meditate ;)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:01 am

-EnYgmA- wrote:A very simple question, what is the system that needs most of the other in this story ? :?
That is far from a simple question, as clearly there is differences of opinions. In my opinion, phpBB is the most needy. It needs a plugins system, it needs to become more responsive to user requirements. It needs to improve its development cycle. It needs the features that other forums software has (eg, warning types/values and automatica warning progressing to suspensions and/or bannings, highly configurable). But that's just my opinion.
Dévellopement that long or not it should take its time to get the best possible code for our forums, others argue more speeds, yes and ? :?

To meditate ;)
I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that we should be happy with a slower development cycle, and fewer features if it results in better code (presumably for the sake of better security)?

If so, I think I've already made my opinion on that issue quite clear. :-)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by -EnYgmA- » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:02 am

For the plugin system => AutoMod :mrgreen:
Although it is not perfect

Why phpBB should go faster ?

For what other scripts have functions already presents ?

Is it really important to follow the others ?

The plugin system is a native of phpBB when his time comes ;)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:21 am

-EnYgmA- wrote:For the plugin system => AutoMod :mrgreen:
Although it is not perfect
That's not a plugin system. That's a modification system. The two things are hardly comparable.
Why phpBB should go faster ?
Sounds like a trick question. So that users requirements are met closer to when they want them, and they don't have to wait several years for new features. I thought that would be fairly obvious.
For what other scripts have functions already presents ?
Not sure what you mean.
Is it really important to follow the others ?
Not at all. And I don't think anybody suggested such a thing.

What is important is that the users can get the features they want in a timely manner. In phpBB there have been precious few new features since 3.0 was released. That was several years ago now. Yay, we got 'quick reply' though! :-)
The plugin system is a native of phpBB when his time comes ;)
WHEN. It's been a long time in the making, but apparently it's going to be real soon now. Great.

One feature!!!! Woohoo!!!!
(at least it's a biggie though)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by callumacrae » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:27 am

Why would not NOT want to close phpBB and tell the users to go somewhere else?
Seriously?!

Why would car company X NOT want to shut down and tell their users to go somewhere else?

There are thousands upon thousands of perfectly happy phpBB users. Sure, there are the odd few that want every feature in the world adding (which does make a massive difference, by the way, and I have worked for a hosting company before so I think I'm qualified to say what hits the servers hardest), and ten there are a few more with some valid points (like the need of an events system, which I being added). Unfortunately, phpBB only has limited resources. Suggesting that phpBB shut down to remedy that is a bit of a silly idea, though.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by -EnYgmA- » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:57 am

Son of a Beach wrote:
-EnYgmA- wrote:For the plugin system => AutoMod :mrgreen:
Although it is not perfect
That's not a plugin system. That's a modification system. The two things are hardly comparable.
what is the difference between a plugin and a mod ? :P

;)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by /a3 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:11 am

Son of a Beach wrote:PS. Top notch security is a great goal worth pursuing. But it should not come at the expense of all else. Eventually there's got to be some compromise where people say that the value of that high security does not outweigh the value of this, that, or the other (whatever else may be of value to them). For me, that line has been reached. The most secure system is one that nobody can access, and is therefore useless. Anything else is a compromise, it's just a matter of how much compromise is acceptable.
The phpBB developers do take security seriously AFAIK, but I don't think they were ever obsessive about it. Security is something I consider very important though. Security bugs can make a piece of software unpopular very quickly. IMO phpBB3's security is one of the reasons it is so successful. Unfortunately, at least according to various events and mentions on the phpBB blog, phpBB still suffers from the not-as-good security record of phpBB2.
-EnYgmA- wrote:what is the difference between a plugin and a mod ?
Plugins don't require code edits, MODs do.
$ git commit -m "YOLO"

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:34 am

callumacrae wrote:
Why would not NOT want to close phpBB and tell the users to go somewhere else?
Seriously?!

Why would car company X NOT want to shut down and tell their users to go somewhere else?

There are thousands upon thousands of perfectly happy phpBB users. Sure, there are the odd few that want every feature in the world adding (which does make a massive difference, by the way, and I have worked for a hosting company before so I think I'm qualified to say what hits the servers hardest), and ten there are a few more with some valid points (like the need of an events system, which I being added). Unfortunately, phpBB only has limited resources. Suggesting that phpBB shut down to remedy that is a bit of a silly idea, though.
Yes, seriously. (and you've quoted me out of context pretty badly). A car company exists to make money. If a care company shuts down, they no longer make money. I'm surprised anybody would think that was a reasonable analogy.

phpBB does not exist to make money. I THINK they exist to provide a great free forum software package to benefit people who want a great free forum package. I happen to think that there may be a better way they could meet the needs of their users than the current roadmap.

You may think it's a silly idea, but I've outlined several reasons why I think it's a good idea. So I guess we don't agree. No surprise there, of course.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:37 am

-EnYgmA- wrote:
Son of a Beach wrote:
-EnYgmA- wrote:For the plugin system => AutoMod :mrgreen:
Although it is not perfect
That's not a plugin system. That's a modification system. The two things are hardly comparable.
what is the difference between a plugin and a mod ? :P

;)
I'm also surprised at this question. The difference is HUGE. A plugin is modular. It doesn't affect the code of any core components. A mod(ification) by definition does modify core components, and is not at all modular (NB: 'mod' in phpBB is modification... in some other systems a 'mod' means a module which is the same as a plugin).

Modifications are nowehere near as good as plugins in the vast majority of cases. I'm not going to explain why. If anybody doesn't already know why, then I don't think my explaining it is going to help those people.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:43 am

As I expected, I've clearly ruffled a few feathers. This wan't my intention, but and unavoidable consequence of stating beliefs that are completely contrary to other people's beliefs. I'm sorry if I've upset anybody.

Also, as expected, I've not seen any agreement with me. Of course anybody who would agree with me has likely already gone somewhere else (as I probably will fairly soon).

I just thought it was worth putting this out there for people to consider.

It is interesting to note, though, that in all the many responses here, I've not seen a single argument against my proposition that I find remotely convincing. Just the expected stuff.

Anyhow, I'm going to bow out of the discussion for now, and unsubscribe from the topic.

Have fun with it. I'm sure you'll find a lot of other reasons to reassure yourselves that the product your using or involved with and their current road map is the best way forward. Unfortunately none of the reasons presented so far made any impact on my views at all. :-(

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