The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Do not post support requests, bug reports or feature requests. Discuss phpBB here. Non-phpBB related discussion goes in General Discussion!
Ideas Centre
marian0810
Former Team Member
Posts: 3011
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Name: Marian
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by marian0810 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:04 am

DionDesigns wrote:I tried making a couple test posts on the area51 board, and apparently new members require approval. So I'll wait until I get that approval before posting my comments...I tend to post on-the-fly and sometimes need to make a couple quick edits immediately after posting.
I'm afraid that's not going to work since posts in the testforums don't add to your postcount. The only way is to make a serious post in the correct section. You can always use the preview function to check it before you submit.
You and me, time and space. You watch us run!

Oleg
Former Team Member
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:42 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:24 am

MarkTheDaemon wrote: I get really bored when I hear this. Release timelines seem to work for other volunteer based projects, and it can and should be assumed that each volunteer can contribute X hours per week/month as an average meaning that you should be able to provide some sort of timeline.

I agree it isn't as easy as if you had a team of paid developers, but it is possible.
For 3.1 the developers' consensus was that there was no point in releasing before hooks were finished. Therefore 3.1 will be released when hooks are done.

For subsequent releases we are going to try to adopt a (more) time-based release schedule.
Participate in phpBB development: Get involved | Issue tracker | Report a bug | Development board | [url=irc://chat.freenode.net/phpbb-dev]Development IRC chat[/url]
My stuff: mindlinkgame.com

User avatar
chAos
Former Team Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:05 am
Location: Seattle, WA, US

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by chAos » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Oleg wrote:
MarkTheDaemon wrote: I get really bored when I hear this. Release timelines seem to work for other volunteer based projects, and it can and should be assumed that each volunteer can contribute X hours per week/month as an average meaning that you should be able to provide some sort of timeline.

I agree it isn't as easy as if you had a team of paid developers, but it is possible.
For 3.1 the developers' consensus was that there was no point in releasing before hooks were finished. Therefore 3.1 will be released when hooks are done.

For subsequent releases we are going to try to adopt a (more) time-based release schedule.
Is there a list of which hooks have been implemented and which are still to be completed? Is the plan to just put them in place for mod developers or actually adapt existing functionality over to use the hooks as well?

The latter would take quite a long time - basically a rewrite which would seem a bit redundant if the plan is still to move over to Symfony which has its own events system.

User avatar
callumacrae
Former Team Member
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:28 pm
Location: London, UK
Name: Callum Macrae
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by callumacrae » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:59 pm

chAos wrote:Is there a list of which hooks have been implemented and which are still to be completed? Is the plan to just put them in place for mod developers or actually adapt existing functionality over to use the hooks as well?

The latter would take quite a long time - basically a rewrite which would seem a bit redundant if the plan is still to move over to Symfony which has its own events system.
There's this, and I'm assuming that there will be a better page nearer the time: http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=111

Not sure how many of them have been merged, though.
macr.ae = my website. you probably won't like it.
Proud user ofProud user of

User avatar
MichaelC
Consultant
Consultant
Posts: 3642
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:36 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Name: Michael Cullum
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by MichaelC » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:02 pm

It isn't that we need to implement more events (the new name for hooks). We have over 60 events already added and have run out of ideas of events to add (MOD Authors, please suggest them here to get them added). Its the events architecture (specifically template events) that needs to be completed (and is quite close to completion, it just needs some finishing touches).

Callum, all of those that apply to the update events architecture have been implemented.
:)
Formerly known as Unknown Bliss.
Formerly Website Team Lead/Manager & Development Team.
Please don't PM me for support (or stuff that belongs in the forums or tracker) but otherwise feel free

User avatar
IanMc
Registered User
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:20 am

Fightin' talk

Post by IanMc » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:50 pm

I was trying to read the entire thread, honest, but it is so loooong.

Can anyone summarise it please.

Your forum The Bushwalk Forum is very impressive although I'd wager that not a lot of the greenery in the bush is that light green colour :)

When I flew over Australia (with the aid of a plane) I saw these really long red roads ... can you even get internet in the bush?

Are you just trying to fast track the features that you personally would like to see in phpBB ?

You mentioned the plugin features in another make of forum and the idea of merging phpBB with another company, interesting but probably quite insulting to the programmers :) but conversation is the key and forums are all about information.

Could you sum up the main bugbears that you have with phpBB so that we can all quickly jump ship and go with myBB before we get in too deep please... I notice that you sill use phpBB :) and you have a great forum going there! Good on ya mate!

You have some good points on your forum like this one Why do PM messages stay in the outbox ... yes, good point... why aren't they just like emails, you send em' they'ze gone ... and why do PM boxes fill up. Maybe if they could be echoed to email then all this could be removed.

Perhaps have the administrative option to send PMs as emails instead? Then when you send a PM it is sent as an email with the subject line of 'Private Message from user xxxx from ABC'

Just FYI this very popular Australian forum has:
103 users most online at once
Total posts 118096 • Total topics 7827 • Total members 4169

Rather impressive!

Look what you've done phpBB, look what you've done!
You are effecting even people in the remotest regions of the outback of Australia !

Kudos!

Son of a Beach
Registered User
Posts: 294
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:36 am
Location: Tasmania
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:33 am

Yes, we're remote and very niche (aiming only at bushwalkers in Australia doesn't leave us open to a huge number of people). But we're doing very well in any case. (I don't measure the success of the site by numbers of people, but by the amount and quality of relevant information and by the quality of the community).

A myBB version of the site was created for testing at http://bushwalk.com/mybb/ at around the time that this topic was originally posted. I haven't really had time to look at it much since then (too many other projects to think about). Still not 100% sure that I'm going to switch, but I reasonably confident it will happen.

No, I ain't going to summarise this topic yet again. :-)

User avatar
AmigoJack
Registered User
Posts: 5605
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:33 am
Location: グリーン ヒル ゾーン
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by AmigoJack » Wed May 02, 2012 1:24 pm

Son of a Beach, I apologize for all needless, inadequate, incompetent and offense comments being done here, like off-topic driven excuses or mixing up modifications with plugins or being fussed with why you won't explain the difference between a modification and a plugin (I hope that author simply misinterpreted a MOD as a "module") or imprecising your words.
  1. The merge. I came to the same thought on different projects and/or techniques, since most are doing the same but effectively investing their energy parallely with almost the same outcome. In the end both has advantages and disadvantages: the more similar things you have, the more alternatives exist - it's like a natural backup. Redundancy always comes with the price of "wasting" energy. My choice between having multiple systems instead of a few or only one always needs context: in standardization terms I want a singularity - in resource terms (supermarkets, software, medicals...) I want diversity. Didn't myBB evolve out of the fact to simplify and extend phpBB or am I confusing it with another board software?
  2. The plugins are already built-in, but only rudimentary (yes: you can already use hooks). The biggest downside of plugins is that they actually need interfaces to connect to, whereas a modification is virtually bound to nothing. Systems which support plugins and/or addons (in Firefox terms that makes a huge difference) are only as good as the interfaces they provide. Of course, this is somehow a one-time evolution to go through until everything is accessible to plugin developers, but it will also never be finished (because of added/changed core functionality). Same will happen to phpBB 3.1 and I'm curious to see if average developers will use hooks in favor to modifications.
  3. JS enhancements are both nice and hindering. Almost every AJAX implementation only covers the good case and lacks all bad cases, like an internet connection reset: a site relying on AJAX is then mostly in an unrecoverable state and you have to re-load it again - which is the same as totally resetting of what you already filled into the whole form. Also those sites can't be saved for viewing them offline - I wonder if I'm that near to dinosaurs or if JS-fans have never been offline their whole life. That's my view and it complies with those of the phpBB developers. Needless to say: to pick one Mozilla-esque addon and use its download count totally leaves off non-Mozilla browsers and their JS treatment features, not to speak of desktop firewall systems filtering your HTTP traffic. So there are definitly more JS-haters out there than one might think of.
  4. The speed is reasonable when taking into account that nobody pays for phpBB and security has the highest priority. Having a compromise like "good to high security but also including features in a short time" kills the security nonetheless. I experienced a lot of so-called "developers" who clearly didn't knew what they were doing, likewise I've seen countless code lines being so ineffective, unreliable or plain wrong. It totally fits my 9/10 world aspect (9 out of 10 people/things/behaviours are idiots/useless/inconsistent - always). It's just like that and it won't ever change - humans aren't machines. Because of that I'm always pessimistic on picking up a software (and in 9 of 10 cases I immediately find a broken/missing triviality). phpBB took me a long time (using it again since 3.0.7-PL1) until I found weak spots - that's why I will stay here also in the future (and why I'm a bit afraid of future plans to rely on Symfony). The overall performance is well-thought and once you don't want to use MySQL as DBMS anymore only few board software alternatives are left.
  5. The majority consists of idiots. For me (see above). Actually I wonder why phpBB still has so many fans instead of losing them, so elite groups emerge where people are actually able to not ask noob questions all day long about how to use the board. A couple of users ask for features already being implemented (which may also be an indicator on a currently bad implementation, but only few of them really fit anything near that - multiquote might be an example here). Many users ask for features with questionable functionality or being far off technical limitations. Most users ask/rant mainstream stuff. All the moderators answering the same questions each and every day have my respect! If the majority either chooses phpBB or myBB it proves nothing. phpBB is already complex enough and the majority of people is unable to distinguish between forums, topics and posts. This is a quite subjective point, as I've never bent for the majority in my life - likewise I'd never encourage the phpBB staff to do so. I'm also in the lucky position of being able to code my own modifications (speak: I know how phpBB acts and can add code without nuking the performance or creating security holes), so I'm not bound to a plugin system and plugins to be created/maintained at all. ;)
Summed up: your idea is to not waste energy of two board systems existing parallely. While you see more advantages in that (a fusion), I see more disadvantages in it. Hopefully in 2 years we meet again and can compare a few facts between how myBB has developped since then and how phpBB has. I really have no forecast on what will happen. :)
The worst thing about censorship is ███████████
Affin wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:51 am
The problem is probably not my English but you do not want to understand correctly.
...
We will not come anybody anyway, nevertheless, it's best to shit this.

User avatar
MichaelC
Consultant
Consultant
Posts: 3642
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:36 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Name: Michael Cullum
Contact:

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by MichaelC » Wed May 02, 2012 5:12 pm

AmigoJack wrote:Son of a Beach, I apologize for all needless, inadequate, incompetent and offense comments being done here, like off-topic driven excuses or mixing up modifications with plugins or being fussed with why you won't explain the difference between a modification and a plugin (I hope that author simply misinterpreted a MOD as a "module") or imprecising your words.

*snip*

II. At the moment this could seem rather confusing to some users so I'll try and explain this.
Plugins - An olympus feature (added in 3.0.6) for the auth, captcha and search backend systems with the aim to allow a new captcha/auth method/search backend to be added without editing files, however a few CAPTCHA plugins (there aren't many search & auth plugins) do also edit files.
Extensions - A new phpBB 3.1 feature. They are completely self-contained. The extension will live inside phpBB/ext/<vendorname>/<extname>/ . They support events (the new term for hooks), plugins and more. Theoretically anything a modification can do these can do. However extensions with a front page (e.g. a blog or gallery) can't be at phpBB/blog/, it will be at phpBB/index.php?ext=blog. There is a built-in installer and it has numerous modes to make life easier. It also allows SQL changes.
MODs - A way to customise olympus installs by editing files, adding files, applying database changes. AutoMOD was available from http://www.phpbb.com but not built-in. There was a limited hooks system in use but it did not meet many applications, was not well documented and did not support template edits. In 3.1 MODs will attempted to be phased out and replaced by extensions as they are easier to use (with the modes and no more update conflicts), install (built-in installer and no MOD conflicts) and develop (all self-contained so you don't need to use the MODX generator, just copy the directory. I'd say extensions can be used for everything (except making something not at index.php?ext=) MODs can but I'm sure someone will find an obscure way they they can't so I wont.

III. JS/AJAX features have been added in 3.1 in recognition of the latest web technologies, however phpBB will still work with JS disabled.

IV. Simply put the Olympus line is running out of bugs to be fixed, its only natural; as the age of a line of maintenance releases grows older, releases will be more staggered as there is less to fix. 3.1 has taken a bit longer than we would have liked however numerous plans have been put into place for the future to help have a speedier release cycle. Also this year has seen a massive increase in the amount of community contributions. Not only with prospective GSoC students working to show their ability in the application process (and the accepted students will now be working on large features (and small ones) and a number of rejected students have also said they will stay around and contribute) but a number of other community members have started contributing. We have what I think might be a record number of open pull requests at the moment due to the overwhelming amount of code being written, all of which needs to be heavily reviewed and revised before being merged.

With regards to symfony, you only mentioned it briefly but I'll talk quite a bit about it, symfony is used in numerous popular applications (Yahoo Answers, Drupal 8 etc.). It has a quite fast release cycle (so that shouldn't ever slow down phpBB releases) and the aim of using it is that it greatly reduces the amount of development time as so many basic things are already done for you. It also makes things easier to use other libs that already exist again, saving us the time developing them (e.g. assetic, monolog, Doctrine ORM and DBAL, FOSUserBundle). If we really wanted we could do it without a framework but it means we have to do all the basics of making our own template engine, dbal, basic classes etc. ourselves. Then it makes it harder for us to use external library's as we have to work harder to integrate them. Although, I'd like to point out, as symfony components are decoupled it is possible to use them on their own in your application without it being symfony based. For events in 3.1 we have actually including the symfony events dispatcher component to cut down a lot of development time but we did this without major architectural changes by using the decoupled component.

If I'm honest, until around the beginning of this year I hated symfony. I thought it looked more complicated and would take ages to learn how to use. Then I made a contribution to area51 and thought, wow, that was a nightmare (mainly because I got confused by having things in the directory structure and the location of parts of the code). But recently I've started using it a lot more and have been using it in my personal projects as I've actually taken the time to look at it, see how it works, see how it can be used, and I love it. The documentation for it is fantastic for any new beginners (and quite useful as a reference when I can't remember how to use/do something). I would just say, don't judge symfony until you've read at least a few pages of the "Book" and tried it out (I'm mainly talking to developers here).
:)
Formerly known as Unknown Bliss.
Formerly Website Team Lead/Manager & Development Team.
Please don't PM me for support (or stuff that belongs in the forums or tracker) but otherwise feel free

CaNNon_
Registered User
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:07 am

Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by CaNNon_ » Wed May 02, 2012 10:23 pm

All the moderators answering the same questions each and every day have my respect! If the majority either chooses phpBB or myBB it proves nothing. phpBB is already complex enough and the majority of people is unable to distinguish between forums, topics and posts. This is a quite subjective point, as I've never bent for the majority in my life - likewise I'd never encourage the phpBB staff to do so
I'd have to agree you you on that AmigoJack, the guys really rock.
I've worked with some of the other packages and phpbb3's support staff is tops by far, your hard pressed to find a support question that's not had some forum of help or request for more info with in the hour if not less...

I'd have to put that support in the top three reasons to use this over another package.

Post Reply

Return to “phpBB Discussion”