The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

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noth
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by noth » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:52 pm

very entertaining thread that simply serves to give us a laugh, nothing more
Licensing would not be an issue, as the old phpBB software would not be used in the new product. No doubt they'd be techinically incompatible anyhow. The features would have to be developed from scratch without copying from the old software. Makes each one a big deal, but there are seriously few features missing.
see there is the core of this topic :x

there is absolutely no MERGE involved, the whole topic is based on a lie

the old phpBB software would not be used in the new product! so basically RIP phpBB, SOME MERGE!! some topic :lol: hilarious and to sum up, just go to myBB and leave phpBB behind :D

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by DionDesigns » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:36 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:Modifications are nowehere near as good as plugins in the vast majority of cases. I'm not going to explain why. If anybody doesn't already know why, then I don't think my explaining it is going to help those people.
Please explain it, because I think you made this up in an attempt to prove a point.

Here's my take on the issue. MODs will always have more capabilities because they modify the core code. Plugins are MUCH better from a compatibility/conflict standpoint -- but only if the core code is well-written. The core code of myBB is spaghetti-code at best...its developers seem more interested in adding features than in making sure the added features don't cause more problems than they solve.

Look, neither phpBB nor myBB is close to being perfect. One project adds features constantly without regard to their effects. The other spends FAR too much time talking and worrying about those effects (Still supporting subsilver2? Making sure features work without javascript? Give me a break!), and as a result, few features get added. myBB looks great, but due to its myriad of security issues and things breaking every time a new feature is added, I would never use myBB for anything I really cared about. phpBB is rock-solid, but due it supporting so many things from its past (it's 2012, not 2001!), the base product is resource-intensive with dated looks. However, with a little work, it can be transformed into something really great, having all the features of myBB you want, and maintaining a level of security that myBB will NEVER achieve.

Feel free to disagree, but you will be wrong. :lol:

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by callumacrae » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:38 pm

DionDesigns wrote:Look, neither phpBB nor myBB is close to being perfect. One project adds features constantly without regard to their effects. The other spends FAR too much time talking and worrying about those effects (Still supporting subsilver2? Making sure features work without javascript? Give me a break!), and as a result, few features get added. myBB looks great, but due to its myriad of security issues and things breaking every time a new feature is added, I would never use myBB for anything I really cared about. phpBB is rock-solid, but due it supporting so many things from its past (it's 2012, not 2001!), the base product is resource-intensive with dated looks. However, with a little work, it can be transformed into something really great, having all the features of myBB you want, and maintaining a level of security that myBB will NEVER achieve.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by CaNNon_ » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:53 pm

(Still supporting subsilver2? Making sure features work without javascript? Give me a break!)
Altho I never liked subsilver some do... but keep it, dump it, whatever it's a non issue. Simply a style choice.

Not the case for javascript or any script, with today's security risks you would be surprised just how many use things like noscript. In my case I still expect to see a site running so I can decide if I wish to allow scripts or leave. ;)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Erik Frèrejean » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:27 pm

DionDesigns wrote:Still supporting subsilver2?
Yes, there was an RFC on removing it but the community wanted to keep it. This is what RFCs are created for in the first place.
DionDesigns wrote:Making sure features work without javascript? Give me a break!)
Javascript should really only be used to enhance user experience on a site, as soon your site doesn't work without javascript you've made a wrong design decision somewhere down the road.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:31 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:If there's going to be a takeover/merge, why shouldn't the most popular board system take over the other? phpBB is (supposedly) the most popular and its programmers know how to write more secure code. Why doesn't myBB fold and have its programmers help phpBB implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path?
I hope you're not seriously suggesting that when two projects, companies, whatever, merge that the resulting project should be based on the most popular one at the expense of what is the best one. That does not sound like a sensible approach to me. Surely the better one should not be scrapped just because it's not as popular. Note that I'm not saying (here) that one is better than the other, just that deciding on which product should take over the other based on which is most popular seems to me to be a bad idea.
Popularity is important, too -- not for its own sake,though. For example, presuming that phpBB is more popular than myBB, it probably also has more users (not admins -- readers like us). No matter how easy your proposed "merge" made it for admins to convert their phpBB boards to myBB, I doubt that the user experience would be converged. Users would still have to get used to the myBB user interface. Forcing X million myBB users to get used to phpBB is less onerous than forcing Y million phpBB users to get used to myBB presuming Y > X.

As you didn't make a real case for which is the "better" board, why shouldn't the deciding factor be popularity (AKA user base size)?

Of course, there are many instances where the more popular and arguably inferior product beat the less popular and arguably superior product -- VHS beating Beta and Windows beating OS/2, for example.
Son of a Beach wrote:If you're talking about myBB in particular, then there are very good reasons why they should not fold into phpBB and help implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path. Firstly, there is no plug in system for phpBB. I think that would be reason enough. But even once 3.1 is released, and the new plugin system is tried and proven, phpBB would most likely still suffer from the same slow development cycle. Until proven otherwise, this should be expected. As you suggest (below), the myBB developers my lose interest and walk away afterwards, leaving phpBB with the same development team, and the same slow development cycle.
First, I believe that there IS a plug-in system for phpBB -- it just hasn't been released. You can presumably grab the code and check it out if you want. (I know that's not what you meant, but still....)

Second, not having a plug-in system released obviously isn't reason enough. If it were, wouldn't more phpBB users have already migrated? You made it sound like it's fairly straightforward to move from phpBB to myBB, so why aren't users doing it in droves? Plug-ins will be great (maybe I'll even install some instead of sticking to my no MOD policy), but they're not everything.

Third, regarding development speed, adding the myBB developers would presumably increase the speed of getting phpBB 3.1 out the door. Isn't that your basic complaint -- things aren't moving fast enough?

Finally, whether myBB developers walk away is different than whether phpBB developers do. In your scenario, there was really no further use for phpBB developers after they helped myBB create migration tools and added whatever phpBB features that myBB was missing. In my scenario, the myBB developers would still be useful, developing officially-supported plug-ins and/or adding new features to phpBB. (Yes, the phpBB developers could do the same for myBB, but that wasn't the scenario that you presented.)
Son of a Beach wrote:Working the other way around, myBB has a much more responsive development cycle, and already has a tried and tested plug in system.
And more security issues. You really don't seem to get how important that is. I had a phpBB 2.x board hacked because of a major security bug (and a lack of checking for updates on my part at the time :oops:).
Son of a Beach wrote:Note that if I'd submitted this 'PS.' post on myBB, this post would automatically be merged with my previous post (with a <hr> between the contents of the two original posts) - if nobody else posted in between my two posts - within a configured time threshold. ;-)
Or, if you'd just edited your original post like you're supposed to instead of bumping after all of six minutes, the issue would be moot. :shock:
Son of a Beach wrote:It is interesting to note, though, that in all the many responses here, I've not seen a single argument against my proposition that I find remotely convincing. Just the expected stuff.

[...]

I'm sure you'll find a lot of other reasons to reassure yourselves that the product your using or involved with and their current road map is the best way forward. Unfortunately none of the reasons presented so far made any impact on my views at all. :-(
The fact that you don't find the arguments convincing isn't really important -- it's what the phpBB user base as a whole finds convincing.

EDITED: Removed comments about the OP abandoning this topic as he seems to have decided to at least occasionally check in here and respond to comments.

Enjoy myBB (and let's hope that you don't get hacked).

Steve
Last edited by Pony99CA on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by callumacrae » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:34 pm

Pony99CA wrote:Enjoy myBB (and let's hope that you don't get hacked).
:twisted:

I kid, I kid…
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by wGEric » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:14 pm

Pony99CA wrote:If there's going to be a takeover/merge, why shouldn't the most popular board system take over the other? phpBB is (supposedly) the most popular and its programmers know how to write more secure code. Why doesn't myBB fold and have its programmers help phpBB implement plug-ins and an excellent migration path?
Probably because the OP doesn't like how phpBB is managed so he wants another group to do it.
Eric

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by DionDesigns » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:21 pm

Erik Frèrejean wrote:Javascript should really only be used to enhance user experience on a site, as soon your site doesn't work without javascript you've made a wrong design decision somewhere down the road.
I heard the exact same thing back in the mid-90s, except you would need to substitute "CSS" for "javascript". And it seems to me that the same thing was being said in the mid-80s, but in that case you would need to substitute "GUI" for "javascript". Change can sometimes be difficult, but it's time to embrace the new millennium. ;)

It's also time to stop holding back development of great features simply to placate a few people with tinfoil hat tendencies who insist on disabling javascript. Such people have become quite rare, and with any luck they will soon be extinct...

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:48 pm

noth wrote:there is absolutely no MERGE involved, the whole topic is based on a lie

the old phpBB software would not be used in the new product! so basically RIP phpBB, SOME MERGE!! some topic :lol: hilarious and to sum up, just go to myBB and leave phpBB behind :D
Sheesh... I've addressed this point earlier too. Please read the topic. I still consider it a merge, whether one of the products no longer exists or not. This is the way such things are referred to frequently for take overs. They are still called 'merge'. In any case calling it a lie, is ridiculous and offensive. I made it abundantly clear what I meant by 'merge'. There was no deception involved, therefore there is no lie.
name removed due to quote being removed from their post later wrote:Of course, you lose all respect when you start a topic that you admit will be incendiary then, after not even two days, scurry off like a cockroach. Enjoy myBB (and let's hope that you don't get hacked).
I find it rather sad, and indeed a little offensive, when people start attacking the person. At least you're still attempting to debate the topic as well, for which I applaud you. When most people start attacking the person, they usually forget to debate the topic as well.

In any case, I was not posting the topic in order to be incendiary, but I thought it was a worthwhile topic and thought that it's incendiary nature was an unavoidable consequence of what I regarded as being a reasonable debate. I expect most people in a similar situation would just move on to another product without saying a word. And you think I'm a cockroach? I hope you'll be man enough to offer an apology for that one day.

Indeed I do plan to leave this topic mostly alone from here on, but am likely to check in occasionally as I'm doing now.

Up until this point (Ie, for a full day, in my time), I thought that I had addressed every point of every post that was put up to counter my ideas. I think I did so comprehensively and politely. And you call me a cockroach? Not much of a counter argument in that, and not one that deserves any respect, I would think.

As it is, I've not seen any arguments since then that aren't much more than repetition of the previous arguments to which I've already provided my counter points. I don't intend to repeat them.

Additionally, I don't have a lot of spare time, and I dedicated what I consider to be a reasonable amount of my spare time to addressing people's points yesterday. I don't plan to spend more of my spare time repeating my counter points to other people's repeated points. I do actually have better things to do. Such as migrating my site to myBB.

If you think that makes me a cockroach, then I can't do much about that, but I do think that that's a very desperate argument, and quite offensive.

I hope you have a great Easter. I'll be away at the beach shortly, and probably out of internet range for a few days, but may check back here afterwards to see if there are any new original arguments that don't involve calling me names or likening me to vermin.
Last edited by Son of a Beach on Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by CaNNon_ » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:06 pm

Enjoy the beach mate, and best wishes for your holiday too!

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by chAos » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:38 pm

I don't know about other devs but after coming home from work I don't feel like coding more. I imagine that feeling is quite common so if you want good quality volunteer work it's going to be slow. If you could work on phpBB and get paid then it'd be a different story.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by /a3 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:10 am

wGEric wrote:Probably because the OP doesn't like how phpBB is managed so he wants another group to do it.
phpBB is licensed under the GPLv2, so there's nothing stopping someone from doing that.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:50 am

/a3 wrote:
wGEric wrote:Probably because the OP doesn't like how phpBB is managed so he wants another group to do it.
phpBB is licensed under the GPLv2, so there's nothing stopping someone from doing that.
An interesting idea, but management without developers would be useless. The new management team would have to convince the developers to jump ship, too, or start with new developers.

As for Eric's point, I understand, but in a merger/takeover, some merging of management often occurs, too.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Erik Frèrejean » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:18 am

DionDesigns wrote:
Erik Frèrejean wrote:Javascript should really only be used to enhance user experience on a site, as soon your site doesn't work without javascript you've made a wrong design decision somewhere down the road.
I heard the exact same thing back in the mid-90s, except you would need to substitute "CSS" for "javascript". And it seems to me that the same thing was being said in the mid-80s, but in that case you would need to substitute "GUI" for "javascript". Change can sometimes be difficult, but it's time to embrace the new millennium. ;)
There is however one massive difference, If I turn off CSS I can still navigate the site and use it ;). If I turn off javascript on a javascript powered site I can't use it. You might chose that, you require javascript on your own site but enforcing it in the package would cause problems. We can't expect that every single phpBB user has javascript enabled.
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