The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

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stevemaury
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by stevemaury » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Pony99CA wrote:I know, but maybe that's his point -- other people do. In fact, the Devil's Advocate might argue that you don't compare features because you'd lose.
Is that how software "winners" and "losers" are picked? The one with the most features wins?
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by CaNNon_ » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:11 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:
Firstly, I want to say that I'm sorry for any offense I've caused people here. I did expect to ruffle feathers, as it is a controversial thing to post. However, I've clearly hit a raw nerve with a lot of people judging by some of the rather emotional responses.
You don't have anything to be sorry for. The subject is worth looking at and you behaved as a gentleman.
It's not something I can see happening, just because I can't see the people walking away from the work they have into each.

At the same time Marshalrusty said the code is community driven, so having input is good. It just needs to be a civil conversation. ;)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:29 pm

stevemaury wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:I know, but maybe that's his point -- other people do. In fact, the Devil's Advocate might argue that you don't compare features because you'd lose.
Is that how software "winners" and "losers" are picked? The one with the most features wins?
If phpBB is the #1 board software, obviously not in phpBB's case (given that other boards have more features). :twisted: phpBB has a very good feature set, but the sheer number of MODs and feature requests indicate that a lot more are desired.

In some cases, though, it is. I read stories in the software press how corporate buying departments basically looked at feature checklists. One example they often used was that word processors had to have search-and-replace, even though many users never even used the replace feature. But it's nice to have in case you do need it.

Yes, that leads to bloated software, but in the case of phpBB 3.1.x, that could be mitigated by adopting my officially-supported plug-ins development model. (I do wish at least one of the developers would give me feedback on whether they thought that it was a good idea or why it wouldn't work.)

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by MichaelC » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Pony99CA wrote:One example they often used was that word processors had to have search-and-replace, even though many users never even used the replace feature. But it's nice to have in case you do need it.
Word processors are designed for every user, forums are designed for those slightly more technically minded. Web development scripts quite often have plugins/extensions/MODs, desktop applications don't have them so much.
Pony99CA wrote:Yes, that leads to bloated software, but in the case of phpBB 3.1.x, that could be mitigated by adopting my officially-supported plug-ins development model. (I do wish at least one of the developers would give me feedback on whether they thought that it was a good idea or why it wouldn't work.)

Steve
Indeed, official MODs by phpBB would be a good idea. The main problem would be man-power, I personally think it would be preferable that time would be spent validating modifications/developing phpBB itself than developing phpBB MODs? And it would most likely come under the MOD Team, not the development team ;)
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:37 pm

uuiiuu wrote:i dont agree with you at all
mybb is very low quality system, it has some extra importent features, but it dosnt have good styles, it is very prehistoric, the system is not secure like phpBB
phpbb could add all the extra features that myBB has without this merge
It's not really about myBB specifically (which could also add all the phpBB features). It's about the fact that phpBB isn't responsive to it's users. Eg, it could have added the features but it hasn't and maybe it won't for years to come.

myBB (again, just an example) has a system for selecting features to add based on user requests. Many other projects use a similar system too.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:56 pm

Unknown Bliss wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:One example they often used was that word processors had to have search-and-replace, even though many users never even used the replace feature. But it's nice to have in case you do need it.
Word processors are designed for every user, forums are designed for those slightly more technically minded. Web development scripts quite often have plugins/extensions/MODs, desktop applications don't have them so much.
Actually, boards have (at least) two types of users -- the owners who install phpBB (and are often more technical, although often not by much as some of the Support forum topics show :)) and the users of the board (who may not be technical at all). Board owners often claim many of the features requested are for their users. Other features are to make administering and moderating the board easier (like the plug-in system and better warnings/banning previously mentioned). I think that some admins might use checklists for both classes of features.
Unknown Bliss wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:Yes, that leads to bloated software, but in the case of phpBB 3.1.x, that could be mitigated by adopting my officially-supported plug-ins development model. (I do wish at least one of the developers would give me feedback on whether they thought that it was a good idea or why it wouldn't work.)
Indeed, official MODs by phpBB would be a good idea. The main problem would be man-power, I personally think it would be preferable that time would be spent validating modifications/developing phpBB itself than developing phpBB MODs? And it would most likely come under the MOD Team, not the development team ;)
If you read my original post, offically-supported plug-ins weren't just intended to add new features; they were also supposed to be used to make the core leaner (an oft-stated goal here) by removing lesser-used features from the core (Jabber, birthdays, etc.). I expected that developers would remove the features and put them in officially-supported plug-ins. (If you haven't read that topic previously, please at least read from that post on; I flesh the concept out more by suggesting more features that could be candidates for removal and suggest creating a "phpBB 3.0 compatibility pack" to get those features back.)

If you want the MOD team to develop new features as officially-supported plug-ins, that's fine by me. The important thing is that such features would be guaranteed to be supported in future versions of phpBB.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Pony99CA » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:25 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:
uuiiuu wrote:i dont agree with you at all
mybb is very low quality system, it has some extra importent features, but it dosnt have good styles, it is very prehistoric, the system is not secure like phpBB
phpbb could add all the extra features that myBB has without this merge
It's not really about myBB specifically (which could also add all the phpBB features). It's about the fact that phpBB isn't responsive to it's users. Eg, it could have added the features but it hasn't and maybe it won't for years to come.
And I've proposed (along with others) that phpBB make more frequent feature releases. That's what makes a product look alive. However, I've also stated why I believe that features are possibly one of the least important part of a board for both board owners and board users. (I try to be objective. :))
Son of a Beach wrote:myBB (again, just an example) has a system for selecting features to add based on user requests. Many other projects use a similar system too.
I've also proposed a feature voting system to help get the most-desired features first. However, a voting system won't mean much without more rapid development. if it still takes two, three or four years to put out a feature release, is it worth the wait?

For the record, I also proposed a new development methodology that started feature discussions here instead of off in Area 51.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:14 am

Son of a Beach wrote: What I was really interested in was the overall focus of phpBB. As a user and occasional visitor to these forums, it's easy to get the impression that phpBB's focus is on phpBB. Personally, I think their focus should be on their users.
As is probably true for most volunteer projects, the focus of phpbb is whatever contributors want to work on within the overall mission of the project.

To use the development team as an example, sometimes developers would work on implementing a feature that they personally want to see in a bulletin board, and sometimes developers would implement a feature that someone requested on .com support forums.
Son of a Beach wrote: It's not really about myBB specifically (which could also add all the phpBB features). It's about the fact that phpBB isn't responsive to it's users. Eg, it could have added the features but it hasn't and maybe it won't for years to come.
You are underestimating how much effort changes in software as mature as phpbb truly need. You can take a look at the open pull requests on github to get an idea of both how much time is needed to review already written code and how much effort is required after initial patch to address various corner cases that originally were not considered.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:11 am

Oleg wrote:You are underestimating how much effort changes in software as mature as phpbb truly need. You can take a look at the open pull requests on github to get an idea of both how much time is needed to review already written code and how much effort is required after initial patch to address various corner cases that originally were not considered.
No, I'm not underestimating the effort required. I fully understand how complicated application development is having done my fair share in the past (don't ask me to do PHP though - my only PHP projects are small and simple). Perhaps you misunderstood me.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:41 am

Really, you want to argue with a development team member over how much effort development process takes? Have you contributed much code to phpbb?

If your estimates originate in the world of commercial software, and especially in-house commercial software (and web sites fall somewhere between in-house products and retail products) your estimates are probably not even close because development processes and requirements are so different.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:48 am

Oleg wrote:Really, you want to argue with a development team member over how much effort development process takes? Have you contributed much code to phpbb?

If your estimates originate in the world of commercial software, and especially in-house commercial software (and web sites fall somewhere between in-house products and retail products) your estimates are probably not even close because development processes and requirements are so different.
heh... I think I've been misunderstood again. I'm not arguing with you at all about how much effort development takes. I'm agreeing with you in that regard. I know it takes a lot of effort. What I disagreed with was you thinking that I underestimated how much effort it takes.

In fact, it is in part the huge amount of effort required to make progress on phpBB that supports my argument in this topic. Ie, I think that the users could be better served by that effort being spent doing something that, in my opinion, would be of more benefit to the users.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:07 am

Certainly if you prefer to use software that implements features faster at the expense of quality that is your choice to make. To claim however that everyone would be as happy as you are with such an election is either ignorant or arrogant.
Oleg wrote:It seems that your needs are met perfectly by another board solution. This is great but mostly irrelevant to those whose needs are met better by phpbb than by other board software.
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Son of a Beach » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:50 am

Oleg wrote:Certainly if you prefer to use software that implements features faster at the expense of quality that is your choice to make. To claim however that everyone would be as happy as you are with such an election is either ignorant or arrogant.
Oleg wrote:It seems that your needs are met perfectly by another board solution. This is great but mostly irrelevant to those whose needs are met better by phpbb than by other board software.
No. My preference is a board that actually implements features. ;-)

But to be a little more serious... You are correct. I'm not happy with a board that has released very nearly zero new features since about 2008 (when did phpBB 3.0 come out?). I think that security and quality is important. But if that results in no new features, then that's simply not good enough.

Most large scale software projects manage to implement both. Shock-horror... yes it's true! (at least if you believe their marketing)

I'm not blaming the phpBB developers, as they volunteer their time (as everybody here keeps reminding anybody who might suggest that there is a problem). However, it is a real problem and anybody who says otherwise really does have their head buried in the sand, or is otherwise blinded by their allegiances or points of view.

As for your "features at the expense of quality" phrase, I personally think that features is PART OF quality. Ie, a quality product has a good set of features.

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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by Oleg » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:39 am

Son of a Beach wrote: I'm not happy with a board that has released very nearly zero new features since about 2008 (when did phpBB 3.0 come out?).
And yet, 4 years later in 2012 there are plenty of reasons to choose it over competing software.

(By the way, "very nearly zero new features" is not an accurate statement.)
Son of a Beach wrote: it is a real problem and anybody who says otherwise really does have their head buried in the sand, or is otherwise blinded by their allegiances or points of view.
See the 30 page falling behind topic for an in-depth analysis of both this problem and its solutions. Do you have anything new to add to the conversation?
Son of a Beach wrote:As for your "features at the expense of quality" phrase, I personally think that features is PART OF quality. Ie, a quality product has a good set of features.
Redefining facts to further your argument is a time-honored tradition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_quality
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Re: The Best Thing that phpBB Can Do: Merge

Post by tbackoff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:30 am

Son of a Beach wrote:But to be a little more serious... You are correct. I'm not happy with a board that has released very nearly zero new features since about 2008 (when did phpBB 3.0 come out?).
I phpBB3 came out in 2007. However, I would like to point out that phpBB 3.0.6 (released November 2009) contained many new features. ;)
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